But I’m interested: Do you still engage with people with whom you have fundamental disagreements? I’m thinking specifically of the the anti-vaxx crowd, or people who believe Donald Trump won the ‘20 presidential election (he really really didn’t).
If you do, how do you do that? And do you engage with the idea that you’ll change the person’s mind?
I used to try to engage online maybe 3 or 4 years ago, but I stopped. As David Gerrold recently pointed out, "You can't reason people out of a position that they did not arrive at using reason." On Twitter, I follow the people who follow the MAGAs just to keep up with the latest nonsense; I don't engage personally except once in a while to remind Greg Abbott that he's a jerk.
In real life, I only had one relative in TX and a handful of acquaintances here in CT who are Trumpers/MAGAs, and I cut off contact with them several years ago.
My world is smaller now, but more peaceful. My mother and my sister provide all the drama I need in my life and at 72 I don't need much.
I quit a golf league after 25 years because I could not take any more anti-government, racist comments. I shun family members who are all in for the gQp. Life is challenging enough as it is for this 70 y.o. to try and reason with the unreasonables!
I have a friend I’ve known for who knows how long? Since the mid 1960s. Her brother was my friend. He died in 2016. But I’ve stayed in contact with Veronica through the years. So when I brought up getting vaccinated, she told me she would never do it and besides, her Jesus would save her. Ya I know, we aren’t going to agree on that crapola so I won’t go there. So I did the only thing I could do and have the skills to do; I wrote a song to her. It’s called, “Vaccine for Veronica.”
When I sent it, she became very angry with me. Well, at least I got a song out of it. We songwriters live for that creatively inspired moment. Here are the words. Maybe I’ll record it today on YouTube and try to link it here.
Vaccine for Veronica
So you’re not sure, you want the cure
Not sure, of the unforeseen
Covid 19 it’s no dream
It’s a nightmare, that reigns supreme
The shot, in your arm
It won’t do you any harm
Old folks paid the price
Don’t forget their sacrifice
The vaccine you cannot do without
You say your having old fashion doubts
Anti vaxers scream and shout
It causes autism you heard them pout
(Repeat)
The shot in your arm…
No wonder she grew a fit I called her out as a pouting anti vaxxer.
It’s hard to change a person’s mind once they have been seduced and sedated by repeated injections of social media content. Call it subliminal seduction. I don’t derive my info from social media and I cut my cable TV years ago. I read internationally respected journals for my information. “A mind is a terrible thing to waste.”
In general, I don’t try, especially with older people. They’ve had their chance to be rational and wasted it and I find being in their presence life sucking. It’s different with younger folks though. I will engage them if the opportunity presents itself. I try to stick to asking questions, asking them to help me understand why they think or feel a certain way and see where that takes us. I was fortunate to receive some great training in facilitating group planning/problem solving. One of the fundamentals was understanding that people, frequently driven by anxiety and fear, will grasp for answers or solutions without taking the time to figure out what questions they should be asking themselves. My job was to tease out questIons for their response based on what they were telling me about their situation to move the effort forward. The same approach can be adopted for personal discussions. But, before I sound too virtuous, let me say that if some blowhard starts spewing cult nonsense I just walk away. I won’t reward them with my attention.
I admire people who hang in there, but I stopped doing that, as well. I don't have the patience and don't appear to have the communication skills to do much but inflame anger. So cool.
Oh boy, you got me going Susan. One more point to make. We all know to, ultimately, the only importance is winning. It is. Republicans will use any devious trick in the book and democrats need to become quick understudies to this or lose. Take for instance the newer legislation on voting. Non citizens cannot vote by law and with the new legislation, legislators refused to include this because it already is enshrined in law. Social media sleuths twisted this and made out that democrats are allowing non citizens to vote. A total lie. So? MY God, wake up, democrats. Start using any and all tools at our disposal to win elections. If we don’t, we choose the proverbial high road of politics and lose. And I don’t want to lose.
I might know of one anti-vaxxer, though we aren't close. She lives in another state and we rarely talk. Otherwise, I don't know of any. I do occasionally share F. Perry Wilson videos. He's an MD with a Masters in Clinical Epidemiology and Assistant Prof at Yale who has a talent for being able to relay complicated topics in an easier to understand way. His delivery is Bill Nye-like, except for adults. If hard to argue with his credentials and he's guided by the science & numbers and not by politics.
My Republican family members are not anti-vaxxers or election deniers. I wonder if engaging with people with such extreme views might be a waste of time. I have engaged with some family members who, in general, were moved further to the right by ring wing media (TV, radio, internet news letters). It took years of sharing facts, information, discussions on how to find trusted news sources, and discussions of news before they began to reverse their trajectory to the right. It was a tag team effort, between my brother & me. I'd say it worked to a degree, primary because we were tenacious and the other side didn't shut us out. It's a hard process that I'm not sure I'd recommend.
😁 I'm pretty sure I watched as many episodes as the kids did, back when his show was on! I think I was shamed into paying more attention to the educational kids' shows when I commented to my husband about a highway billboard, "Check out the picture of the cute animal...I wonder what it is?" And then our toddler from the carseat in the backseat shouted out, "It's a lemur!" Apparently, a lemur was a character from the kids' PBS show, Zoboomafoo. So, we learned something from our 3 year old that day!
I will add, it our partical experience, it was clear there was cognitive dissonance going on. If the person sees themselves as a good-hearted person, and they blindly support candidates that cause harm, it helps to share the harm caused by their support. It helps to share personal stories and a view of how many are negatively impacted. At some point, reasonable people will acknowledge extreme hypocrisy.
The handful of times someone has called me “politically correct” or “woke” like they were accusing me of a crime, I’ve asked them to define what they mean by the term. In every case they’ve fallen way short of an intelligible answer.
Susan, you are asking questions vital for healing and providing critical thinking prompts bringing , in my mind, difficult conversations out of dark, private, and dangerous rooms into the light of public spaces. I feel too emotionally charged at moment to respond to this now. We’re in Orlando, Fl. What a strange trip it’s been (so far). 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼RRR
Some of my family members are Trump supporters and undoubtedly think he was robbed in 2020. They're also anti-vaxxers. I'm very close to them and not going to sever ties because of Trump. Most of them I wouldn't discuss politics w/. I'm not going to change their minds and there's nothing to be gained in fighting about it. One of them I do have discussions with. We both walk on eggshells in those conversations but also both want to at least understand the other's POV. I know there's no changing her mind about Trump but I do try to get her to admit that he's deeply flawed at best. I point out that I voted for both of the Clintons and would again given a chance but was openly critical of Bill Clinton when he had an affair w/ an intern and lied about it & of Hillary when she reacted to the email issue so dismissively. She does grudgingly admit that there are things about Trump she doesn't like and that while she thinks he was a good President (that's so hard to hear) she hopes he doesn't run in 2024.
I think it is important in these conversations to admit party leaders we voted for are imperfect. Otherwise, we sound as cultish as we claim the other side to be.
Since I’m much less partisan and more independent-minded on issues, which means on any particular topic I might find myself on the left side or right side, I have little common ground. One of the greatest presidents in my time in my opinion was LBJ, yet, on account of his Cold War attachment to Vietnam, we protested him and his war and the movement pushed him out of office. Then the nation voted into office a much worst hombre but it was plain to me even as a youngster, that Nixon was going to be bad to the 10th power and that proved providential. Today we are up against a whole new set of influences detrimental to a democracy. Example: the trans world has been almost exclusively perpetrated by tic tok and other online media poisoning young minds. And this seduction of young minds is why there is a conservative backlash. There is an explanation for everything.
I have a couple of cousins in FL who are staunch supporters of Trump and anti-vaxxers. are different in FL. They would brook no negative comments about MAGAman nor questions re the research behind dubious Youtube anti-vaccine reports. Different rules in FL, I suppose. One had a habit of calling Dems “Demorats” & “Dummocrats” so I unfriended him on FB & do not respond when he sends me ignorant videos from his “experts”. My other cousin & I have agreed to disagree and avoid those topics in our infrequent emails.
I have a family member whom I told to stop sending me YouTube videos that purported to explain away the COVID virus. We now gently do not discuss politics.
I sometimes engage when it's a friend's public post and the only view being presented is very biased or flat out wrong. My ability to do so without emojis such as 🙄 and 🤣 is rather limited. 🙃😄 Oh well. I don't expect to change any MAGA minds, only to reassure those who don't believe the Big Lie that it is indeed gaslighting.
For the few relationships that I want to matter (Mom, nieces) I begun to ask the 5 Whys - why do you believe that, over and over and over again. I had the difficult conversation of telling my mother that when confronted with researched facts, and her response is "well, I don't believe that" that it limits my (and my siblings') ability to have conversation with her. She was our greatest cheerleader, insisting we get as much education and training as we could. Now, here she is at 80+ years old, resorting to "I just don't believe it". She is not a MAGA but she could be. She watches the news 24/7 and is afraid of everything. She did listen when told that there is a direct correlation between the two. She only got the covid vaccines because I made my entire family aware that I would not be at any event with those not vaccinated. My mother cared enough then, to get the vaccines and boosters.
My nieces, early 30s, are another issue. They don't believe covid is real. I have not seen them since 2020. I have a grand-niece who is 4. Her parents refuse ALL vaccines. I have not seen her since she was an infant. I love my family dearly but I'm not willing to die (I'm very immune compromised) to prove that I was right.
For everyone else, as soon as stupid starts flowing from their lips, I'm done. I have one life to live and I don't want to spend another minute of it talking to bricks.
Since Chun Woo retired from hockey I'm not around anti-vaxxers much, so far as I know, though certainly few people I know seem to take COVID's continuing infectiousness and kill rate seriously. (I wear a mask not only to protect the public directly, in case I've got COVID, not only as a courtesy, but also as testimony.)
I do seem to have a friend-- someone I've considered my adopted brother-- who looks to have fallen into Q or something else bad. It's a little hard to tell, though. He's not very articulate at the best of times, and I am seeing him only on Facebook. There probably 60% of his posts are links to articles about leftie-this-and-that, about he which he remarks only ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I don't know what ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ means in this context. Stuff about how No One thought it would be Costly to children to shut down schools, about terms for referring to Spanish-speaking peoples*, about what sounds like a really unfortunate policy in Sri Lanka which mandated an abrupt prohibition on use of chemical fertilizers. I am concerned for my friend, and damned if I know what to do.
I used to try to engage online maybe 3 or 4 years ago, but I stopped. As David Gerrold recently pointed out, "You can't reason people out of a position that they did not arrive at using reason." On Twitter, I follow the people who follow the MAGAs just to keep up with the latest nonsense; I don't engage personally except once in a while to remind Greg Abbott that he's a jerk.
In real life, I only had one relative in TX and a handful of acquaintances here in CT who are Trumpers/MAGAs, and I cut off contact with them several years ago.
My world is smaller now, but more peaceful. My mother and my sister provide all the drama I need in my life and at 72 I don't need much.
I laughed at the not needing much drama. Same here.
I quit a golf league after 25 years because I could not take any more anti-government, racist comments. I shun family members who are all in for the gQp. Life is challenging enough as it is for this 70 y.o. to try and reason with the unreasonables!
I have definitely walked away from some relationships. I agree. Life is too short.
I have a friend I’ve known for who knows how long? Since the mid 1960s. Her brother was my friend. He died in 2016. But I’ve stayed in contact with Veronica through the years. So when I brought up getting vaccinated, she told me she would never do it and besides, her Jesus would save her. Ya I know, we aren’t going to agree on that crapola so I won’t go there. So I did the only thing I could do and have the skills to do; I wrote a song to her. It’s called, “Vaccine for Veronica.”
When I sent it, she became very angry with me. Well, at least I got a song out of it. We songwriters live for that creatively inspired moment. Here are the words. Maybe I’ll record it today on YouTube and try to link it here.
Vaccine for Veronica
So you’re not sure, you want the cure
Not sure, of the unforeseen
Covid 19 it’s no dream
It’s a nightmare, that reigns supreme
The shot, in your arm
It won’t do you any harm
Old folks paid the price
Don’t forget their sacrifice
The vaccine you cannot do without
You say your having old fashion doubts
Anti vaxers scream and shout
It causes autism you heard them pout
(Repeat)
The shot in your arm…
No wonder she grew a fit I called her out as a pouting anti vaxxer.
It’s hard to change a person’s mind once they have been seduced and sedated by repeated injections of social media content. Call it subliminal seduction. I don’t derive my info from social media and I cut my cable TV years ago. I read internationally respected journals for my information. “A mind is a terrible thing to waste.”
Where have I heard that before?
I think about that phrase, a lot.
Jimmy Buffett has a good song so appropriate to these times, "A Lot to Drink About".....but your song is write and right on!
Thank you.
In general, I don’t try, especially with older people. They’ve had their chance to be rational and wasted it and I find being in their presence life sucking. It’s different with younger folks though. I will engage them if the opportunity presents itself. I try to stick to asking questions, asking them to help me understand why they think or feel a certain way and see where that takes us. I was fortunate to receive some great training in facilitating group planning/problem solving. One of the fundamentals was understanding that people, frequently driven by anxiety and fear, will grasp for answers or solutions without taking the time to figure out what questions they should be asking themselves. My job was to tease out questIons for their response based on what they were telling me about their situation to move the effort forward. The same approach can be adopted for personal discussions. But, before I sound too virtuous, let me say that if some blowhard starts spewing cult nonsense I just walk away. I won’t reward them with my attention.
I admire people who hang in there, but I stopped doing that, as well. I don't have the patience and don't appear to have the communication skills to do much but inflame anger. So cool.
Oh boy, you got me going Susan. One more point to make. We all know to, ultimately, the only importance is winning. It is. Republicans will use any devious trick in the book and democrats need to become quick understudies to this or lose. Take for instance the newer legislation on voting. Non citizens cannot vote by law and with the new legislation, legislators refused to include this because it already is enshrined in law. Social media sleuths twisted this and made out that democrats are allowing non citizens to vote. A total lie. So? MY God, wake up, democrats. Start using any and all tools at our disposal to win elections. If we don’t, we choose the proverbial high road of politics and lose. And I don’t want to lose.
This is what we get for win-at-any-cost, then. It's not worth it.
I might know of one anti-vaxxer, though we aren't close. She lives in another state and we rarely talk. Otherwise, I don't know of any. I do occasionally share F. Perry Wilson videos. He's an MD with a Masters in Clinical Epidemiology and Assistant Prof at Yale who has a talent for being able to relay complicated topics in an easier to understand way. His delivery is Bill Nye-like, except for adults. If hard to argue with his credentials and he's guided by the science & numbers and not by politics.
https://medicine.yale.edu/profile/francis_p_wilson/
https://www.medscape.com/index/list_12471_0
My Republican family members are not anti-vaxxers or election deniers. I wonder if engaging with people with such extreme views might be a waste of time. I have engaged with some family members who, in general, were moved further to the right by ring wing media (TV, radio, internet news letters). It took years of sharing facts, information, discussions on how to find trusted news sources, and discussions of news before they began to reverse their trajectory to the right. It was a tag team effort, between my brother & me. I'd say it worked to a degree, primary because we were tenacious and the other side didn't shut us out. It's a hard process that I'm not sure I'd recommend.
Bill Nye isn’t for adults? Nobody told me.
I interviewed him once on the radio. I don't think I disguised my delight all that well.
😁 I'm pretty sure I watched as many episodes as the kids did, back when his show was on! I think I was shamed into paying more attention to the educational kids' shows when I commented to my husband about a highway billboard, "Check out the picture of the cute animal...I wonder what it is?" And then our toddler from the carseat in the backseat shouted out, "It's a lemur!" Apparently, a lemur was a character from the kids' PBS show, Zoboomafoo. So, we learned something from our 3 year old that day!
I will add, it our partical experience, it was clear there was cognitive dissonance going on. If the person sees themselves as a good-hearted person, and they blindly support candidates that cause harm, it helps to share the harm caused by their support. It helps to share personal stories and a view of how many are negatively impacted. At some point, reasonable people will acknowledge extreme hypocrisy.
(I've got to slow down when typing on my phone. Sorry for all of the errors.)
Also: Come sit by me.
I cannot imagine the effort. Sometimes I feel like I’m being lazy on this front.
"Lazy" is not a word I'd ever think of attaching to you! 🙂
I guess I mean intellectually lazy. As in “I’m done with you.”
That often times is the wisest decision!
I’m not changing any minds but I have gotten people to think about certain things if for only a brief moment
There are some that no longer have anything to do with me because I won’t play their game
When talking about certain things I stick to the subject and not let them drag me into what-about-ism
That frustrates a lot of people
Especially if they can’t defend their own positions
That’s usually when they either stop talking about whatever the subject was or they stop talking to me altogether
Well done, you. Well-placed questions can be key.
The handful of times someone has called me “politically correct” or “woke” like they were accusing me of a crime, I’ve asked them to define what they mean by the term. In every case they’ve fallen way short of an intelligible answer.
Right, like it's an insult to be told you care about your neighbors.
I used to try posting sane arguments/comments but have given up. It’s not worth the stress.
Yep. Come sit by me.
Susan, you are asking questions vital for healing and providing critical thinking prompts bringing , in my mind, difficult conversations out of dark, private, and dangerous rooms into the light of public spaces. I feel too emotionally charged at moment to respond to this now. We’re in Orlando, Fl. What a strange trip it’s been (so far). 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼RRR
As you are within Ian's sights stay safe
Some of my family members are Trump supporters and undoubtedly think he was robbed in 2020. They're also anti-vaxxers. I'm very close to them and not going to sever ties because of Trump. Most of them I wouldn't discuss politics w/. I'm not going to change their minds and there's nothing to be gained in fighting about it. One of them I do have discussions with. We both walk on eggshells in those conversations but also both want to at least understand the other's POV. I know there's no changing her mind about Trump but I do try to get her to admit that he's deeply flawed at best. I point out that I voted for both of the Clintons and would again given a chance but was openly critical of Bill Clinton when he had an affair w/ an intern and lied about it & of Hillary when she reacted to the email issue so dismissively. She does grudgingly admit that there are things about Trump she doesn't like and that while she thinks he was a good President (that's so hard to hear) she hopes he doesn't run in 2024.
I think it is important in these conversations to admit party leaders we voted for are imperfect. Otherwise, we sound as cultish as we claim the other side to be.
Since I’m much less partisan and more independent-minded on issues, which means on any particular topic I might find myself on the left side or right side, I have little common ground. One of the greatest presidents in my time in my opinion was LBJ, yet, on account of his Cold War attachment to Vietnam, we protested him and his war and the movement pushed him out of office. Then the nation voted into office a much worst hombre but it was plain to me even as a youngster, that Nixon was going to be bad to the 10th power and that proved providential. Today we are up against a whole new set of influences detrimental to a democracy. Example: the trans world has been almost exclusively perpetrated by tic tok and other online media poisoning young minds. And this seduction of young minds is why there is a conservative backlash. There is an explanation for everything.
I have a couple of cousins in FL who are staunch supporters of Trump and anti-vaxxers. are different in FL. They would brook no negative comments about MAGAman nor questions re the research behind dubious Youtube anti-vaccine reports. Different rules in FL, I suppose. One had a habit of calling Dems “Demorats” & “Dummocrats” so I unfriended him on FB & do not respond when he sends me ignorant videos from his “experts”. My other cousin & I have agreed to disagree and avoid those topics in our infrequent emails.
https://youtu.be/bvpb28UFy7Q
I have a family member whom I told to stop sending me YouTube videos that purported to explain away the COVID virus. We now gently do not discuss politics.
I sometimes engage when it's a friend's public post and the only view being presented is very biased or flat out wrong. My ability to do so without emojis such as 🙄 and 🤣 is rather limited. 🙃😄 Oh well. I don't expect to change any MAGA minds, only to reassure those who don't believe the Big Lie that it is indeed gaslighting.
That's a pretty decent goal, actually.
I agree. But don't make the mistake of lumping all conspiracy theories and saying they are all false!
For the few relationships that I want to matter (Mom, nieces) I begun to ask the 5 Whys - why do you believe that, over and over and over again. I had the difficult conversation of telling my mother that when confronted with researched facts, and her response is "well, I don't believe that" that it limits my (and my siblings') ability to have conversation with her. She was our greatest cheerleader, insisting we get as much education and training as we could. Now, here she is at 80+ years old, resorting to "I just don't believe it". She is not a MAGA but she could be. She watches the news 24/7 and is afraid of everything. She did listen when told that there is a direct correlation between the two. She only got the covid vaccines because I made my entire family aware that I would not be at any event with those not vaccinated. My mother cared enough then, to get the vaccines and boosters.
My nieces, early 30s, are another issue. They don't believe covid is real. I have not seen them since 2020. I have a grand-niece who is 4. Her parents refuse ALL vaccines. I have not seen her since she was an infant. I love my family dearly but I'm not willing to die (I'm very immune compromised) to prove that I was right.
For everyone else, as soon as stupid starts flowing from their lips, I'm done. I have one life to live and I don't want to spend another minute of it talking to bricks.
Since Chun Woo retired from hockey I'm not around anti-vaxxers much, so far as I know, though certainly few people I know seem to take COVID's continuing infectiousness and kill rate seriously. (I wear a mask not only to protect the public directly, in case I've got COVID, not only as a courtesy, but also as testimony.)
I do seem to have a friend-- someone I've considered my adopted brother-- who looks to have fallen into Q or something else bad. It's a little hard to tell, though. He's not very articulate at the best of times, and I am seeing him only on Facebook. There probably 60% of his posts are links to articles about leftie-this-and-that, about he which he remarks only ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. I don't know what ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ means in this context. Stuff about how No One thought it would be Costly to children to shut down schools, about terms for referring to Spanish-speaking peoples*, about what sounds like a really unfortunate policy in Sri Lanka which mandated an abrupt prohibition on use of chemical fertilizers. I am concerned for my friend, and damned if I know what to do.
* My friend is Ecuadorian and USian.
That's allowed, you know, to step back and take a breath.