Misogyny, bringing back child labor, racism, they are all making a comeback here in Gilead, and all this time foolish me thought “The Handmaids Tale” was fiction?
Keeping women in the pews is a great example of how the norms of "civilization" are shown in the Bible to be constantly pulling back against the radical inclusion of God's ideal world. The authentic Paul named many women as leaders in the churches he founded and visited, and he wrote that "... there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." But the patriarchy latches onto the lines that were probably meant to address a particular question from a particular congregation. Jesus spoke to women and even let them touch him, which was shocking to both the Jews and Romans in the culture of his time and place.
The literalists like to point out that Jesus never called any women to be his disciples. Well, he never called any Polish or Italian men, either. How literal do we want to get? In the Orthodox Church, Mary Magdalene was never disparaged as a prostitute as in the Western Church, but is honored as the "Apostle to the Apostles," because all four Gospels place her at the empty tomb, and in John's Gospel she is the only person, man or woman, there. She's the one who goes to tell the men, who are in hiding.
In Texas where I grew up, one of the jokes was that Baptists don't drink ... in front of each other. It matters not at all to me what the SBC does. The further down the path of Biblical literalism they go, the more irrelevant they become in the 21st century built on the insights of modern medicine, astronomy, physics, biology, technology, etc.
The late Bishop John Shelby Spong wrote that, "A literalized myth is a doomed myth." He couldn't be more right.
The Southern Baptists formed just before the Civil War--they split from the Northern Baptists over slavery. The Southern branch supported the peculiar institution of course and worked hard to keep it. Through the 19th Century and very far into the 20th the leaders of the convention continued to actively promote white supremacy, Jim Crow laws and segregation. They officially renounced all their racism in the Nineties, but their recent actions illustrate that they are still as sexist as ever and in my mind sexism is a very close cousin to bigotry. They say they've reformed and I'll give them credit for saying so, that's better than nothing, but they are a long way from truly expunging that shit from their DNA. It's still there.
It's always good to look at the history of this, and thank you for it. It only recently dawned on me that the reliably Democratic state of Missouri went Republican when the Democrats started talking about civil rights.
They will probably eventually decide to make some changes. However, they (like many other religious groups) will wrongly assume that such actions will "fix" the problem of declining adherents. Many of us (yep - me included) do not come back to the fold. How we work toward determining if we have faith and what that means became separated from belief structure. Belief structure is no longer relevant or part of our intensely personal search.
My Aunt Verna was ordained as a minister in FL by the Pentecostal Holiness church, one of the most conservative branches of Christianity, in 1963. A revolutionary, evolutionary step for their conference. The PH church still retained some old-fashioned rules for women- i.e. had to dress modestly in dresses or skirts while at church- yet they were moving forward. The Southern Baptists seem stuck in the 1940’s or 50’s.
The original pastor of one expelled church, Saddleback in CA has pointed thousands of people to Christ and mentored countless pastors & church leaders. His books promoting personal growth in the faith walk of Christ followers have been been bestsellers here & abroad. His wife worked alongside him as he did his pastoral duties. But Saddleback was expelled for ordaining women and having one serve on its pastoral staff.
Another church in KY that was expelled had the same female pastor for over 30 years. But suddenly the church was no longer welcome to be associated with S. Baptists? Some of those voting for expulsion did so saying they wanted to reaffirm the Biblical teachings of Paul re women not speaking in church. Others did so because they felt having women pastoring churches was a slippery slope leading to liberalism and emasculating feminism. I’d say if a woman standing behind a podium preaching a sermon based on scripture would emasculate a Southern Baptist man, he wasn’t that strong of a man to begin with. According to scripture God’s gifts to a person and His call on their life is irrevocable. If He has given a woman the spiritual gifts of preaching or teaching, what right has a man, or conference, to stop her from using them? Godspeed to the expelled churches, continue on in ministering in His name.
This context really adds to this and yeah. They are willing to toss the baby out and we are in complete agreement on the whole emasculation question. Really? A woman preaching hurts a man...how?
Well they may be in a running against another Protestant group, the church of Christ, my own hard-shell group. Women are not to usurp authority over, well, anything, including amphibians. It's insane.
Leaving has been a trend and the SBC's decision will only accelerate it. According to the Pew Research Center, about 30% of the US population is religiously unaffiliated and that group is growing. These are their projections for the future:
Misogyny, bringing back child labor, racism, they are all making a comeback here in Gilead, and all this time foolish me thought “The Handmaids Tale” was fiction?
Yeah. Be careful what we label fiction.
Keeping women in the pews is a great example of how the norms of "civilization" are shown in the Bible to be constantly pulling back against the radical inclusion of God's ideal world. The authentic Paul named many women as leaders in the churches he founded and visited, and he wrote that "... there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." But the patriarchy latches onto the lines that were probably meant to address a particular question from a particular congregation. Jesus spoke to women and even let them touch him, which was shocking to both the Jews and Romans in the culture of his time and place.
The literalists like to point out that Jesus never called any women to be his disciples. Well, he never called any Polish or Italian men, either. How literal do we want to get? In the Orthodox Church, Mary Magdalene was never disparaged as a prostitute as in the Western Church, but is honored as the "Apostle to the Apostles," because all four Gospels place her at the empty tomb, and in John's Gospel she is the only person, man or woman, there. She's the one who goes to tell the men, who are in hiding.
In Texas where I grew up, one of the jokes was that Baptists don't drink ... in front of each other. It matters not at all to me what the SBC does. The further down the path of Biblical literalism they go, the more irrelevant they become in the 21st century built on the insights of modern medicine, astronomy, physics, biology, technology, etc.
The late Bishop John Shelby Spong wrote that, "A literalized myth is a doomed myth." He couldn't be more right.
Amen. Interesting that people in my pew are quite literal about this issue, and so willing to be beautifully mystical about others.
Because religion is a tool of oppression invented by the patriarchy.
I have a beautiful argument against this.
Not really. When this kind of nonsense happens, my faith screams out a little louder.
The Southern Baptists formed just before the Civil War--they split from the Northern Baptists over slavery. The Southern branch supported the peculiar institution of course and worked hard to keep it. Through the 19th Century and very far into the 20th the leaders of the convention continued to actively promote white supremacy, Jim Crow laws and segregation. They officially renounced all their racism in the Nineties, but their recent actions illustrate that they are still as sexist as ever and in my mind sexism is a very close cousin to bigotry. They say they've reformed and I'll give them credit for saying so, that's better than nothing, but they are a long way from truly expunging that shit from their DNA. It's still there.
It's always good to look at the history of this, and thank you for it. It only recently dawned on me that the reliably Democratic state of Missouri went Republican when the Democrats started talking about civil rights.
They will probably eventually decide to make some changes. However, they (like many other religious groups) will wrongly assume that such actions will "fix" the problem of declining adherents. Many of us (yep - me included) do not come back to the fold. How we work toward determining if we have faith and what that means became separated from belief structure. Belief structure is no longer relevant or part of our intensely personal search.
Come sit by me. I do not imagine I'll return to the fold, ever.
My Aunt Verna was ordained as a minister in FL by the Pentecostal Holiness church, one of the most conservative branches of Christianity, in 1963. A revolutionary, evolutionary step for their conference. The PH church still retained some old-fashioned rules for women- i.e. had to dress modestly in dresses or skirts while at church- yet they were moving forward. The Southern Baptists seem stuck in the 1940’s or 50’s.
The original pastor of one expelled church, Saddleback in CA has pointed thousands of people to Christ and mentored countless pastors & church leaders. His books promoting personal growth in the faith walk of Christ followers have been been bestsellers here & abroad. His wife worked alongside him as he did his pastoral duties. But Saddleback was expelled for ordaining women and having one serve on its pastoral staff.
Another church in KY that was expelled had the same female pastor for over 30 years. But suddenly the church was no longer welcome to be associated with S. Baptists? Some of those voting for expulsion did so saying they wanted to reaffirm the Biblical teachings of Paul re women not speaking in church. Others did so because they felt having women pastoring churches was a slippery slope leading to liberalism and emasculating feminism. I’d say if a woman standing behind a podium preaching a sermon based on scripture would emasculate a Southern Baptist man, he wasn’t that strong of a man to begin with. According to scripture God’s gifts to a person and His call on their life is irrevocable. If He has given a woman the spiritual gifts of preaching or teaching, what right has a man, or conference, to stop her from using them? Godspeed to the expelled churches, continue on in ministering in His name.
This context really adds to this and yeah. They are willing to toss the baby out and we are in complete agreement on the whole emasculation question. Really? A woman preaching hurts a man...how?
What are they doing? Are they trying to be more arcane and chauvinistic than we Catholics?
Well they may be in a running against another Protestant group, the church of Christ, my own hard-shell group. Women are not to usurp authority over, well, anything, including amphibians. It's insane.
They like women in the pews because offertory is still typically taken and received there.
They like women in the kitchen and janitorial closets and church office and so on perhaps even more, though.
Nor I! What you said!!
Leaving has been a trend and the SBC's decision will only accelerate it. According to the Pew Research Center, about 30% of the US population is religiously unaffiliated and that group is growing. These are their projections for the future:
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/modeling-the-future-of-religion-in-america/
I might add that the primary reason Baptists have a Savior to worship at all is as a result of women's generosity. See Luke 8:1-3.
I’m with you, Susan. The horrible goings on in the Catholic Church ( the church I was raised in), have also compelled me to wave goodbye,