For just a moment I want to set aside the issues of ethnicity and religion. I think this tragedy is representative of a confluence of two virulent streams of male thought in America. I wanted to say white male thought which is the predominant strain but I don’t want to let other men off the hook. The first stream is about misogyny. The second is phony victimhood. The combination can become twisted justification for objectification, dehumanization and subjugation. I’m not just talking about murderers. Think Robert Kraft, Bill Clinton, Donald T**** and more to the darker side of the spectrum, Jeffrey Epstein. All contributors to the normalization of men’s worst instincts. When people say we’re saying the bad part out loud these days, we’re not just talking racism (cue the moron sheriff’s deputy). Sexism isn’t a good enough word. These women were exploited and likely enslaved (Did you ever think of that Mr. Kraft? You pig). I swear, I’m still waiting for a convicted rapist to sue his victim for parental rights for the child she bore as a result of the rape. I’m sure Asa Hutchinson would be down with that.
Stripped to its core it is immorality and it runs deep. For men like these, religion, racism and dehumanization can serve as both motivators and justification. To a degree, I think they can be distractions. How boys get this way is a question we all have to answer. How these individual men got this way is important in context but it’s a question asked in isolation and I think we need to be careful about that. We can take it as a pass on our own responsibility.
I’ve never thought of America as post-racial or post-sexist but I thought we were making progress. That may have been an illusion. Attempting to be “glass half full”, maybe the past four years have been progress of a sort by exposing the rot that still exists and making it harder to deny. Just maybe.
Amen. Amen to all of this. These virulent streams you mention are with us, and washing over us, and I want to start hearing about whether these women had a choice for their employment. How do we ask how this man got this way and how these women ended up his targets in context? I'm serious. Is mentioned the evangelical approach to the problem just a small piece? How do we start talking about this in the full context of all the players/influences/racism/misogyny?
What? I pose a question and have to try to provide answers as well? Sheesh!
Ok. Maybe this is one piece of probably more pieces than I can count.
This is far from an original thought but it’s a distillation of stuff we all know. Demonizing sex outside of marriage and/or for procreation only is frequently done so at the expense of any reasonable discussion about intimacy and closeness. While frequently associated with sex, intimacy stands alone as a state of being. It can be achieved between any two people without it being sexual. By itself it is a pretty noble goal in a relationship, whatever or whoever those two people are. For a lack of a full understanding and for men in particular, intimacy can become a thing for wusses, sissies. An attitude usually developed when an adolescent (read, an immature idiot) and carried into manhood or what passes for manhood.
Uncorrected, it can serve as a basis for isolation, self-loathing and women hating, even for men who end up in relationships but that’s another story.
This next part is way creepy, so I apologize in advance. We know that rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power. Now this guy is probably inclined to be a rapist (and very well could be) but he paid for sex with the women at these places so one could argue that technically it’s wasn’t rape. That robbed him of the power so in a fit of twisted, “manly” righteousness he took the power back and killed them. Or maybe in his mind, sacrificed them. Better them than him, right?
He has no excuse for what he did and he should pay. There’s a lot of loaded guns walking around out there so it’s reasonable to ask the question; In the bigger picture, who’s responsible for the aiming? The church makes the list but it’s not alone.
Now I have to go off and think about Stuff. But if our conversations about sex-outside-of-state-sanctioned-marriage could switch, that would be a start. A new definition of non-gendered "power" would be another step. But yes, to all of this. This is such a thoughtful response, and thank you.
This is so sad. Is targeting a gender (women) a hate crime? He certainly did that. Even if he is saying he didn't target Asian women, Asian women were the target. I'm no expert, but I would call this a hate crime. And WTF Reuters? This guys kills 8 people and that he went to church in Georgia is what makes the headline? I'm out of words on all of this. It's all so sad.
It looks (and this is from looking at the papers this morning) that authorities are focusing on the shooter's demons, not his targets. I wonder if the general outcry will change that -- as the outcry over the sheriff's deputy saying the shooter "had a bad day." I had a bad day earlier this week. It involved a spring cold. This goes beyond a "bad day." I also want to ask in what condition were these women working? And did they have employment options besides massage parlors? I know that makes me sound like a prude, but sex work can be incredibly dangerous. If the women chose this work voluntarily, what kind of protections did they have? You're right. It IS so sad.
You ask good questions. There are potentially many layers of issues, injustices, and crimes. The dehumanizing of the victims by calling their mass murder a result of a bad day is racist, sexist, and disgusting. I will never forget what someone said to me one time: "You treat me like a person." I did nothing more than I would do for anyone in the situation. I cared and protected. However, the person who said it had come to expect less from most people, especially from people who looked like me. I fought hard not to tear up. It certainly opened my eyes and heart to more.
"Then — as the violence stirred fears in an Asian American community that already felt under attack — Internet sleuths and journalists found Baker’s Facebook posts promoting shirts that called the novel coronavirus an “IMPORTED VIRUS FROM CHY-NA.”"
For just a moment I want to set aside the issues of ethnicity and religion. I think this tragedy is representative of a confluence of two virulent streams of male thought in America. I wanted to say white male thought which is the predominant strain but I don’t want to let other men off the hook. The first stream is about misogyny. The second is phony victimhood. The combination can become twisted justification for objectification, dehumanization and subjugation. I’m not just talking about murderers. Think Robert Kraft, Bill Clinton, Donald T**** and more to the darker side of the spectrum, Jeffrey Epstein. All contributors to the normalization of men’s worst instincts. When people say we’re saying the bad part out loud these days, we’re not just talking racism (cue the moron sheriff’s deputy). Sexism isn’t a good enough word. These women were exploited and likely enslaved (Did you ever think of that Mr. Kraft? You pig). I swear, I’m still waiting for a convicted rapist to sue his victim for parental rights for the child she bore as a result of the rape. I’m sure Asa Hutchinson would be down with that.
Stripped to its core it is immorality and it runs deep. For men like these, religion, racism and dehumanization can serve as both motivators and justification. To a degree, I think they can be distractions. How boys get this way is a question we all have to answer. How these individual men got this way is important in context but it’s a question asked in isolation and I think we need to be careful about that. We can take it as a pass on our own responsibility.
I’ve never thought of America as post-racial or post-sexist but I thought we were making progress. That may have been an illusion. Attempting to be “glass half full”, maybe the past four years have been progress of a sort by exposing the rot that still exists and making it harder to deny. Just maybe.
Amen. Amen to all of this. These virulent streams you mention are with us, and washing over us, and I want to start hearing about whether these women had a choice for their employment. How do we ask how this man got this way and how these women ended up his targets in context? I'm serious. Is mentioned the evangelical approach to the problem just a small piece? How do we start talking about this in the full context of all the players/influences/racism/misogyny?
What? I pose a question and have to try to provide answers as well? Sheesh!
Ok. Maybe this is one piece of probably more pieces than I can count.
This is far from an original thought but it’s a distillation of stuff we all know. Demonizing sex outside of marriage and/or for procreation only is frequently done so at the expense of any reasonable discussion about intimacy and closeness. While frequently associated with sex, intimacy stands alone as a state of being. It can be achieved between any two people without it being sexual. By itself it is a pretty noble goal in a relationship, whatever or whoever those two people are. For a lack of a full understanding and for men in particular, intimacy can become a thing for wusses, sissies. An attitude usually developed when an adolescent (read, an immature idiot) and carried into manhood or what passes for manhood.
Uncorrected, it can serve as a basis for isolation, self-loathing and women hating, even for men who end up in relationships but that’s another story.
This next part is way creepy, so I apologize in advance. We know that rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power. Now this guy is probably inclined to be a rapist (and very well could be) but he paid for sex with the women at these places so one could argue that technically it’s wasn’t rape. That robbed him of the power so in a fit of twisted, “manly” righteousness he took the power back and killed them. Or maybe in his mind, sacrificed them. Better them than him, right?
He has no excuse for what he did and he should pay. There’s a lot of loaded guns walking around out there so it’s reasonable to ask the question; In the bigger picture, who’s responsible for the aiming? The church makes the list but it’s not alone.
Now I have to go off and think about Stuff. But if our conversations about sex-outside-of-state-sanctioned-marriage could switch, that would be a start. A new definition of non-gendered "power" would be another step. But yes, to all of this. This is such a thoughtful response, and thank you.
This is so sad. Is targeting a gender (women) a hate crime? He certainly did that. Even if he is saying he didn't target Asian women, Asian women were the target. I'm no expert, but I would call this a hate crime. And WTF Reuters? This guys kills 8 people and that he went to church in Georgia is what makes the headline? I'm out of words on all of this. It's all so sad.
It looks (and this is from looking at the papers this morning) that authorities are focusing on the shooter's demons, not his targets. I wonder if the general outcry will change that -- as the outcry over the sheriff's deputy saying the shooter "had a bad day." I had a bad day earlier this week. It involved a spring cold. This goes beyond a "bad day." I also want to ask in what condition were these women working? And did they have employment options besides massage parlors? I know that makes me sound like a prude, but sex work can be incredibly dangerous. If the women chose this work voluntarily, what kind of protections did they have? You're right. It IS so sad.
You ask good questions. There are potentially many layers of issues, injustices, and crimes. The dehumanizing of the victims by calling their mass murder a result of a bad day is racist, sexist, and disgusting. I will never forget what someone said to me one time: "You treat me like a person." I did nothing more than I would do for anyone in the situation. I cared and protected. However, the person who said it had come to expect less from most people, especially from people who looked like me. I fought hard not to tear up. It certainly opened my eyes and heart to more.
You probably saw this.:
"Then — as the violence stirred fears in an Asian American community that already felt under attack — Internet sleuths and journalists found Baker’s Facebook posts promoting shirts that called the novel coronavirus an “IMPORTED VIRUS FROM CHY-NA.”"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/03/17/jay-baker-bad-day/