Omg! This was my thesis for "confirmation!" I was chastized! I asked, "if Jesus is white, what about my brown friends?" Lol, I was denied communion, and, at 12/13, mentally left the faith, favoring instead the view that personifying a (g)od seems damaging to what wonder and worship is all about.
That was about the age when I started looking for the exit, myself. My leave-taking was precipitated by "How come a woman cain't be a preacher?" I didn't like the answer. I didn't find the answer in scriptures.
IMO, that line is SO problematic for multiple reasons! For one, it can only be written by a narcissitic minded human who thinks God would create mini-mes. And as if God even has an image or gender or that gender - it's not God.
Indeed. The Bible was written by human beings who by their very nature are flawed and subjective. Taking its verses as the literal word of God has created an entire world of fundamentalists who will never budge in their beliefs.
Ah, you are hitting a nerve in my heart, Susan. Thank you for penning words reflecting my opinion that the image of white (j)esus served as the figurehead of Manifest Destiny. Sigh.
I’m a black Catholic clergy who grew up with Emmet Till, a veteran and a civil rights activist. I was arrested and jailed for peacefully protesting during the civil rights movement in the 60’s and again during the black lives movement in 2015. Plus my parish is in Simsbury.
I’ve GOT to be optimistic or my reality will catch up to my reality !!!😃
Yes, Cyndi your experience was and remains horrid. There are no words I have that can reduce your pain nor give balm to your loss. Please just know I am sorry.
May the God who loves you, give you strength for your journey.
Oh, gosh, did I misunderstand? Do you wish he'd loved me then, obviously? Meaning you wish he had shown his love in an obvious way? Please help me understand.
I grew up in a Congregational Church and was glad that the cross hanging in front of our church did not have Jesus on it. I never liked seeing them in people’s homes or places of worship, always the white Jesus.
So too is the image of God as a man, which we all grew up with. As an adult I like to think of God as a woman or perhaps gender neutral. I have told my children that God is the strength and love inside of each of us.
I do, as a Catholic clergy, embrace the truth of Christ. And yet I have evolved not only as a black man, but as a Catholic clergy in my understanding of the personhood of Christ. I do not reject a European looking Christ, I do not reject an Asian looking Christ, I do not reject an African looking Christ. Christ appears in the form we wish to see Him.
I do reject the idea that Christ belongs to only one group. I reject and oppose that Christ is, has and maybe used to diminish the personhood of any of His creation. But most importantly, when my great day arises, I’d rather stand before Him as a believer than a non believer, as one who embraces others rather than rejects others and a slave rather than a slave-holder.
As a "Deacon" do you support the hypocrisy of the Catholic church? Or are you afraid to take a stand. As a young kid growing up in Old Wethersfield I wrote a letter to Archbishop Whealon when he removed our beloved pastor replacing him with one of his cronies who had a personality like a shoe full of sh*t! Whealon did have the courtesy to reply and used all the company lines (you do know the church is a corporation right?). Fast forward 50+ years and we've endured many scandals, even in the Bristol church where our 3 kids attended the Catholic elementary school where the assistant pastor knocked up a mother in our younger son's class. Oh and the Pastor has the audacity to read a letter from the pulpit telling us the Priest in question (soon to be a REAL father) was seeking a leave of absence for a sabbatical (maybe at the Dr. Spock school of parenting?!?) Anyway, the point I was trying to make was WWJD...he be honest, he'd hold up those who are hypocrites, he encourage us to be accepting of all. Today many Catholic Bishops cannot accept The Beatitudes and hide in their pastoral mansions as if they were "special"....Jesus lived on the streets, with little to no creature comforts...sorry to go on but a nerve was touched!
I have come to realize the church is a reflection of this society. Broken people seeking a place to be healed. Filled with hypocrisy? Absolutely. And yet, as a deacon, I’m able to point out our own shortcomings as we sit in the pews.
I share with them that they are the church, not the priest nor deacon. The people are the church. I try, as best I can, to point out that where we gather on Sundays is the locker room. The place we go to learn and grow and be nurtured and then leave that place to get into the game.
As a black man I do know the hypocrisy of its priests. This is a short part of my story:
It was our first Mass in our new community where we had moved. 1957 was a difficult time for black Americans. And Chicago was a difficult place to integrate a community. It was a quiet walk , with normal warnings of good behavior, which was the norm for mom.
Entering the church, an amalgam of white faces turned and stared. We sat quietly as the priest Fr. Mattimore prayed in Latin and spoke in English, they were both Greek to me and my brothers who busied ourselves poking one another.
As Mass finally ended we walked out of the church through the sea of whiteness that strangely parted as we walked away.
Mom, who was kind and soft spoken moaned through a barely open mouth.
It was difficult to determine what she was saying, but whatever it was, she was not happy. I was unfortunately holding her hand as her fingers unknowingly dug into the flesh of my hand.... again she muttered...something... we dared not ask what was wrong... but she was furious.
Then I began to understand her angry words:
“ That man is not going to put me out of my church!” Over and over, “That man is not going to put me out of my church! That man is not going to put me out of my church!”
We learned later the priest was not welcoming the new black parishioners.
He wanted us to go elsewhere.
Evidently he didn’t realize who my mother was and the depth of her faith and determination to confront what was wrong.
From that day forward she attended daily Mass and sat in the front pew.
Forty two years later, my mom’s funeral was celebrated there. I sat in the front pew. Before she died I shared with her that I was accepted into the diaconate program in my home Archdoicese.
I am my mother’s son. And no man will stay me from my faith.
I apologize that I cannot understand a commitment to organizations and "corporations -- so-called persons" that have for centuries taken children from their natural places to boarding schools, have tortured unwed mothers, e.g., washhouses in Ireland, and who stole my baby girl (at the time I was 18 and working) when they "put me down" (the doctor's words to the anesthesiologist) AFTER I delivered her. I caught a glimpse of golden curls and listened to her first cry, then went down. My sister (now calling herself MAGA momma)and the catholic doctor (she converted somehow from Ozark evangelism to Catholicism) sold her in a closed adoption -- they forged my name. They kept me "down" for a long time. When I became conscious, I was in a wheelchair, speeding towards the back of the hospital with my backpack and things shoved between my blood-stained legs and subsequently shown the door. This period of my life demolished my faith in folks with any " power over" or who guide folks to a holy life. Humph.
While I do admire your mum's fortitude and your honesty, in my mind, your compliance equates to the silence MLK Jr. spoke of.
Oh, Cyndi. I am so, so sorry. I don't even have words to offer comfort for what was done to you. I can't speak for any one else on this thread. I still believe, and I don't try to defend my faith, not because I don't feel it's worth defending, but because I think we all land on a square that works best for ourselves. We're here for one another, and if in my case Jesus is in the mix, it's implied. I struggle with my faith (I always thought of it as arm-wrestling with God), and maybe it's a cop-out, but the theory of religion is beautiful to me. The practice of it often falls far short.
Susan, when I left NM at 14, I went to NOLA and lived in the 9th ward for a bit. I attended AME churches. I managed to get an apartment and a job at Martin Marietta Michod. In my heart of heart, I know the mystery and wonder of religion as a practice, but the control of women aspect chills my soul.
In Granby lives an emeritus professor from Rollins College who has an interesting notion of god as a perpetual cycle of creativity. He helped start the UU church I attended in Winter Park, FL. He edited a science and religion journal. Cool guy. The closest UU church in Connecticut is Storrs, which is quite a ride.
Thank you for this thread. It jump-started my passion for this topic. I wrote all night. 13 pgs! I don't write this stuff for sympathy; I write it for attention to the fate of women within religion. My experiences sometimes seem relevant at times.
Thanks for sharing this beautiful story. I am certain your mother is among the Saints in Heaven….and yes at the local level there are good stories like at our poor, inner city parish in Hartford where our congregation is like the rainbow, where dogs are welcomed, where we collect items for the many shelters that surround us, we even have a pet food pantry for those who love their pets but cannot afford to feed them. All of this is due to a colorblind, gender blind Priest who practices what he preaches. At a dinner hosted by the Archbishop that my wife and I attended one of his peers sat at our table and ridiculed him…..so much for wearing the collar!
I have blessed to have preached there and given a revival there.
I was at St. Michael’s on Capen street on the north end of Hartford for years. I was blessed to serve the folks there and still do. It too was a church that embraced loved. A place where Justice and peace embraced. Psalm 85vs 10
There’s a lot of meat on this bone, cheek bones of course. History is replete with replete with examples of humans weaponizing religion. I just email a NarAnon friend on the hypocrisy that surrounds us at all levels. If I was a guy in a colorful costume with a funny hat (am I giving my church away?) I would eliminate all pages of scripture except for The Beatitudes!?! Those are reported to be the words of Jesus, they are simple and if they were the basis for us all wouldn’t the world be a better place?!?
I was raised Greek Orthodox, and the people portrayed in our icons in general looked vaguely Greek/Middle Eastern, but definitely not Norwegian. I was only exposed to Nordic/Aryan Jesus when I went to the occasional vacation Bible school with friends.
This, to me, is the most important insight of Judaism and Islam, and probably a few other religions that I don't know about, that the Supreme Being should never be depicted in art, and certainly never in human form.
On the other hand, a white male Italian-American priest who lived here in CT painted an entire series of icons populated by Native Americans, so maybe there is something to be said for making God/Jesus in our own image?
The selfishness of many white American Christians is staggering (as well as patently un-Christian):
“But, Susan, how am I supposed interpret this verse from Genesis if Jesus (aka God of the Christian trinity) doesn’t look like me?”
“So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”
And by asking that question, how far a leap is it to wonder how people who are something other than white do the same?
Omg! This was my thesis for "confirmation!" I was chastized! I asked, "if Jesus is white, what about my brown friends?" Lol, I was denied communion, and, at 12/13, mentally left the faith, favoring instead the view that personifying a (g)od seems damaging to what wonder and worship is all about.
That was about the age when I started looking for the exit, myself. My leave-taking was precipitated by "How come a woman cain't be a preacher?" I didn't like the answer. I didn't find the answer in scriptures.
IMO, that line is SO problematic for multiple reasons! For one, it can only be written by a narcissitic minded human who thinks God would create mini-mes. And as if God even has an image or gender or that gender - it's not God.
Indeed. The Bible was written by human beings who by their very nature are flawed and subjective. Taking its verses as the literal word of God has created an entire world of fundamentalists who will never budge in their beliefs.
Sorry - had to run mid-sentence.
"or that gender" is a narrowly defined word.
And -- as always -- I read it that way. We're in sync!
Ah, you are hitting a nerve in my heart, Susan. Thank you for penning words reflecting my opinion that the image of white (j)esus served as the figurehead of Manifest Destiny. Sigh.
As kids, we once made fun of the notion of what we called Norwegian Jesus. Even as kids, we knew something was off.
Indeed
I’m a black Catholic clergy who grew up with Emmet Till, a veteran and a civil rights activist. I was arrested and jailed for peacefully protesting during the civil rights movement in the 60’s and again during the black lives movement in 2015. Plus my parish is in Simsbury.
I’ve GOT to be optimistic or my reality will catch up to my reality !!!😃
Really! So cool. Maybe we can share stories? Used to live in Simsbury. Now in Collinsville.
Indeed!
A phrase I love- "Jesus is a verb, not a noun".
That's wonderful.
Yes, Cyndi your experience was and remains horrid. There are no words I have that can reduce your pain nor give balm to your loss. Please just know I am sorry.
May the God who loves you, give you strength for your journey.
I do wish he'd loved me then.
My comment is attached to yours. “ I do wish he’d loved me then and loved me( you) in an obvious way.
Oh, gosh, did I misunderstand? Do you wish he'd loved me then, obviously? Meaning you wish he had shown his love in an obvious way? Please help me understand.
I grew up in a Congregational Church and was glad that the cross hanging in front of our church did not have Jesus on it. I never liked seeing them in people’s homes or places of worship, always the white Jesus.
So too is the image of God as a man, which we all grew up with. As an adult I like to think of God as a woman or perhaps gender neutral. I have told my children that God is the strength and love inside of each of us.
WWJD is the motto we all should carry.
Well done - thank you! ❤
My God, but this is an interesting conversation. Look at us. We are all on different pews but we can still find our community.
Well then. Actually Jesus is Asian.
(The Continental on which he was born)
I do, as a Catholic clergy, embrace the truth of Christ. And yet I have evolved not only as a black man, but as a Catholic clergy in my understanding of the personhood of Christ. I do not reject a European looking Christ, I do not reject an Asian looking Christ, I do not reject an African looking Christ. Christ appears in the form we wish to see Him.
I do reject the idea that Christ belongs to only one group. I reject and oppose that Christ is, has and maybe used to diminish the personhood of any of His creation. But most importantly, when my great day arises, I’d rather stand before Him as a believer than a non believer, as one who embraces others rather than rejects others and a slave rather than a slave-holder.
As a "Deacon" do you support the hypocrisy of the Catholic church? Or are you afraid to take a stand. As a young kid growing up in Old Wethersfield I wrote a letter to Archbishop Whealon when he removed our beloved pastor replacing him with one of his cronies who had a personality like a shoe full of sh*t! Whealon did have the courtesy to reply and used all the company lines (you do know the church is a corporation right?). Fast forward 50+ years and we've endured many scandals, even in the Bristol church where our 3 kids attended the Catholic elementary school where the assistant pastor knocked up a mother in our younger son's class. Oh and the Pastor has the audacity to read a letter from the pulpit telling us the Priest in question (soon to be a REAL father) was seeking a leave of absence for a sabbatical (maybe at the Dr. Spock school of parenting?!?) Anyway, the point I was trying to make was WWJD...he be honest, he'd hold up those who are hypocrites, he encourage us to be accepting of all. Today many Catholic Bishops cannot accept The Beatitudes and hide in their pastoral mansions as if they were "special"....Jesus lived on the streets, with little to no creature comforts...sorry to go on but a nerve was touched!
I have come to realize the church is a reflection of this society. Broken people seeking a place to be healed. Filled with hypocrisy? Absolutely. And yet, as a deacon, I’m able to point out our own shortcomings as we sit in the pews.
I share with them that they are the church, not the priest nor deacon. The people are the church. I try, as best I can, to point out that where we gather on Sundays is the locker room. The place we go to learn and grow and be nurtured and then leave that place to get into the game.
As a black man I do know the hypocrisy of its priests. This is a short part of my story:
It was our first Mass in our new community where we had moved. 1957 was a difficult time for black Americans. And Chicago was a difficult place to integrate a community. It was a quiet walk , with normal warnings of good behavior, which was the norm for mom.
Entering the church, an amalgam of white faces turned and stared. We sat quietly as the priest Fr. Mattimore prayed in Latin and spoke in English, they were both Greek to me and my brothers who busied ourselves poking one another.
As Mass finally ended we walked out of the church through the sea of whiteness that strangely parted as we walked away.
Mom, who was kind and soft spoken moaned through a barely open mouth.
It was difficult to determine what she was saying, but whatever it was, she was not happy. I was unfortunately holding her hand as her fingers unknowingly dug into the flesh of my hand.... again she muttered...something... we dared not ask what was wrong... but she was furious.
Then I began to understand her angry words:
“ That man is not going to put me out of my church!” Over and over, “That man is not going to put me out of my church! That man is not going to put me out of my church!”
We learned later the priest was not welcoming the new black parishioners.
He wanted us to go elsewhere.
Evidently he didn’t realize who my mother was and the depth of her faith and determination to confront what was wrong.
From that day forward she attended daily Mass and sat in the front pew.
Forty two years later, my mom’s funeral was celebrated there. I sat in the front pew. Before she died I shared with her that I was accepted into the diaconate program in my home Archdoicese.
I am my mother’s son. And no man will stay me from my faith.
I am so sorry for this. Your mother is an inspiration.
I apologize that I cannot understand a commitment to organizations and "corporations -- so-called persons" that have for centuries taken children from their natural places to boarding schools, have tortured unwed mothers, e.g., washhouses in Ireland, and who stole my baby girl (at the time I was 18 and working) when they "put me down" (the doctor's words to the anesthesiologist) AFTER I delivered her. I caught a glimpse of golden curls and listened to her first cry, then went down. My sister (now calling herself MAGA momma)and the catholic doctor (she converted somehow from Ozark evangelism to Catholicism) sold her in a closed adoption -- they forged my name. They kept me "down" for a long time. When I became conscious, I was in a wheelchair, speeding towards the back of the hospital with my backpack and things shoved between my blood-stained legs and subsequently shown the door. This period of my life demolished my faith in folks with any " power over" or who guide folks to a holy life. Humph.
While I do admire your mum's fortitude and your honesty, in my mind, your compliance equates to the silence MLK Jr. spoke of.
Religion in America lacks relational fortitude.
Sorry for any typos. I'm sitting in traffic, lol!
Delicious conversation.
What an ordeal. I'm so sorry you were put through that, Cyndi.
No worries!
Oh, Cyndi. I am so, so sorry. I don't even have words to offer comfort for what was done to you. I can't speak for any one else on this thread. I still believe, and I don't try to defend my faith, not because I don't feel it's worth defending, but because I think we all land on a square that works best for ourselves. We're here for one another, and if in my case Jesus is in the mix, it's implied. I struggle with my faith (I always thought of it as arm-wrestling with God), and maybe it's a cop-out, but the theory of religion is beautiful to me. The practice of it often falls far short.
Susan, when I left NM at 14, I went to NOLA and lived in the 9th ward for a bit. I attended AME churches. I managed to get an apartment and a job at Martin Marietta Michod. In my heart of heart, I know the mystery and wonder of religion as a practice, but the control of women aspect chills my soul.
In Granby lives an emeritus professor from Rollins College who has an interesting notion of god as a perpetual cycle of creativity. He helped start the UU church I attended in Winter Park, FL. He edited a science and religion journal. Cool guy. The closest UU church in Connecticut is Storrs, which is quite a ride.
Thank you for this thread. It jump-started my passion for this topic. I wrote all night. 13 pgs! I don't write this stuff for sympathy; I write it for attention to the fate of women within religion. My experiences sometimes seem relevant at times.
Good night!🤺
Thanks for sharing this beautiful story. I am certain your mother is among the Saints in Heaven….and yes at the local level there are good stories like at our poor, inner city parish in Hartford where our congregation is like the rainbow, where dogs are welcomed, where we collect items for the many shelters that surround us, we even have a pet food pantry for those who love their pets but cannot afford to feed them. All of this is due to a colorblind, gender blind Priest who practices what he preaches. At a dinner hosted by the Archbishop that my wife and I attended one of his peers sat at our table and ridiculed him…..so much for wearing the collar!
I love st P& A.
I have blessed to have preached there and given a revival there.
I was at St. Michael’s on Capen street on the north end of Hartford for years. I was blessed to serve the folks there and still do. It too was a church that embraced loved. A place where Justice and peace embraced. Psalm 85vs 10
I think this is one of the reasons that I've been enjoying "The Chosen" series
I love this series.
There’s a lot of meat on this bone, cheek bones of course. History is replete with replete with examples of humans weaponizing religion. I just email a NarAnon friend on the hypocrisy that surrounds us at all levels. If I was a guy in a colorful costume with a funny hat (am I giving my church away?) I would eliminate all pages of scripture except for The Beatitudes!?! Those are reported to be the words of Jesus, they are simple and if they were the basis for us all wouldn’t the world be a better place?!?
I was raised Greek Orthodox, and the people portrayed in our icons in general looked vaguely Greek/Middle Eastern, but definitely not Norwegian. I was only exposed to Nordic/Aryan Jesus when I went to the occasional vacation Bible school with friends.
This, to me, is the most important insight of Judaism and Islam, and probably a few other religions that I don't know about, that the Supreme Being should never be depicted in art, and certainly never in human form.
On the other hand, a white male Italian-American priest who lived here in CT painted an entire series of icons populated by Native Americans, so maybe there is something to be said for making God/Jesus in our own image?
https://jbgicon.com/angels/
https://jbgicon.com/christ/
These are beautiful.
Stunning art. I'm might order a T-shirt for my T-shirt collection. The HOPI corn maiden rocks! Thank you for this.
He did beautiful work. I have bought several greeting cards and a poster or two over the years. The Tree of Life is my favorite.
John 8:23
Yeah… And loved you obviously.
You are pretty optimistic about that! Respect.
How so?