I think all churches and "churches" should lose tax-exempt status except on properties that are used for charitable purposes and no other purpose. For example, the square footage in the adjacent building that is used as a food pantry or soup kitchen. It's absurd for the government to have to decide what is and what is not a "legitimate" church for tax purposes. Witness all the mail-order "ministers" that get to deduct their home and car(s). And "ministers" with a fleet of planes so they can get from one fund-raising event to another faster. They're fleecing the flock for their own gain. And those who claim to be Christians who preach the "gospel of wealth" should be first in line to pay taxes. What happened in San Antonio is shameful, and if the attendees were also members of that congregation and not just the paying public, they should be ashamed, too.
All churches? Why throw the baby out with the bath water? There are many churches who are focused primarily on helping people in need in a variety of ways. (I was at one of those churches tonight.) Removing their tax exempt status would end up shutting some down and negatively affecting the people who would no longer be helped.
Re: Christianity - Was Jesus political? In our current times, it seems anything related to compassionate response is being accused of being political. It's ridiculous! However, it seems religion has not ever been completely separate from politics. Morals, ethics, religion, and politics are all intertwined. I don't know where the line is, legally, or if it's realistic.
The chant was beyond political. As a so called Christian church, what that chant implied was hypocritical. It looks like they are ignoring what Jesus taught and using their church status for selfish gain. That is what bothers me most.
It sounds harsh, but yes. I feel about tax exemptions for faith groups the way I feel about our system of granting patents. It was a good idea in the beginning and it has morphed into something far from its original intent. Surely there is a better, more equitable way.
What would you suggest? Do you think all tax-exempt status be eliminated from non-secular non-profit organizations as well? There are some churches that put more of their funds and (volunteer) labor into charitable works than some non-profits. And there are non-profits that rely heavily on volunteers and funds from partnering churches. It's intertwined and complicated.
Food pantries, Mobile Foodshare, temp housing for homeless families, clothing/food/holiday gift collections, space for AA meetings, Preschools, senior meals are some of the things found in churches. And then there are armies of volunteers resettling refugee families, assisting teachers in classrooms in vulnerable schools, buying and filling backpacks for kids, supplying staff & meals in homeless shelters on the days not covered by regular staff, sorting food at Foodshare and staffing mobile foodsite locations, converting space to temp bedrooms for homeless families and providing meals during their stay, fixing damaged homes near and far...to name a few.
Church for some is a place where they feel accepted for who they are and are welcomed. This is especially valuable for teens. Other churches are full of judgment, and harm. Again, so very different. I can say on the former, it would also be tragic to lose the teen fellowship offered by welcoming congregations.
Additionally, many do put what is taught in church into practice in bigger ways. Compassion & love guide many to seek equity and justice for all, and that is when politics overlap. We know what party that more closely aligns to. We learn together with open minds and hearts, and seek out ways to raise up others who have been struggling and/or historically disadvantaged.
On the other hand, there are (mega)churches that put a lot of money into production, pastor pay, beautiful facilities, and even private planes. Some align with anti-social justice and anti-equity politics. That churches like mine get lumped into the same category as those churches is unfortunate. We share the word, "church", but we are very different. We need different words to describe and separate them. I do not agree they should all be treated the same when it comes to tax-exempt status. I would guess many church congregations, doing good work, would end up having to close their doors if they had to pay taxes on the offerings collected. I don't know if anyone has analyzed what the impact on community services etc would be without church funding & volunteers. I imagine it would have a significant ripple effect in a negative way. I don't know what the answer is. I share your frustration with churches whose actions/words contradict what they say they believe. I just don't think churches like mine should be punished because of them. It would ripple out to punishing unintended vulnerable people.
The only people it will hurt are the megachurches and the megapreachers with their multiple homes, cars, private planes, fur, and diamonds and gold. The whole point of tithing is the notion that a minimum of ten families can support a single preacher and his family who live the same lifestyle as the congregation lives. Or, if they can't manage that, then the preacher has a weekday job like everyone else. It *doesn't* mean that one preacher fleeces 500 or 1000 families for a tithe and then lives high on the hog while they continue to struggle.
The offerings collected go to far more than pastor salaries and speaking for my own church, pastors already have weekday jobs (& then some) with church related activities. I do get your point though that pastors shouldn't be made wealthy, as you described.
I guess it depends on how it's done. I'm pretty sure the churches that would suffer the most would be the smaller churches. They are already struggling to survive.
The religious aspects are an interesting philosophical discussion. However, the operational part is reporting to the IRS - and quickly in case power shifts again next year. If a church is found to engage in politics, they can (and often do) lose their tax exemption.
Do they? I think the IRS has prosecuted and won once, maybe. Deciding what is and is not a legit "religion" for tax purposes is not something the government should have to do.
Yes, you're right. I was confusing two different things. No tax-exempt organization is allowed to campaign for specific candidates, whether it's a church or the Red Cross.
Then let's remind this church of just that. I'd bet the quadi-political nonsense would stop if they thought the IRS was going to yank their tax-free status.
They know this is a violation: they're betting they won't be caught and reported. You're kinder than I: I say report them and let them find grace through repentance.
I am trying to remember which Republican woman married to someone in office coyly called a Democrat woman "rhymes with witch." Do you happen to remember?
See, I look at remembering some little thing like that as kind of sad. Like, I could be devoting my brain cells to worthwhile things, but no. I focus on crap like this.
Whereas I tend to think, "There must be something sharp and special about this weird snapshot. I wonder what it is, and whether I'll ever know what it is?"
I firmly believed that the ticket should've been flipped - Ferraro was wicked smaht - and still can't wrap my head around the fact that she was taken down due to the interactions her lawyer husband had with the mob, when a few short decades later we elected a man whose hotels were built with cement only available through mod ties, and whose business model and behavior is so clearly "Cosa Nostra".
When I consider religion, and take sections of scripture, like the Beatitudes, I conclude that MOST of today's "organized corporate religions" simply lost the focus...simply said they all stopped applying the simple concept of WWJD!
No argument here. It’s stunning how far afield some have wandered, but I shouldn’t be stunned. There are examples of this in the Christian scriptures, way back when.
Shame on you for allowing your sacred space to be abused in this manner. I trust the rental fees made it worth the loss of your reputation as a congregation that takes "take all the Gospel to all the world." I'm guessing your copy of the Gospels doesn't include the Beatitudes, or the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, or the story of the Final Judgment in Matthew 25?
Congregations like yours are the reason I'm unchurched.
Like others have said, it is time to end this "religion as a political pulpit" nonsense. Once stuff like that is seen and heard, you document all that and send it straight to the IRS. Freedom of speech? Borderline maybe. Freedom of religion? Wasn't there something about "...thou shall not put other Gods before me..."?
All this stuff is starting to take on a colosseum vibe. I hear Cornerstone is installing a vomitorium for its next potluck.
Yet another spit take, courtesy of Paul. I really hope my keyboard survives these.
I think all churches and "churches" should lose tax-exempt status except on properties that are used for charitable purposes and no other purpose. For example, the square footage in the adjacent building that is used as a food pantry or soup kitchen. It's absurd for the government to have to decide what is and what is not a "legitimate" church for tax purposes. Witness all the mail-order "ministers" that get to deduct their home and car(s). And "ministers" with a fleet of planes so they can get from one fund-raising event to another faster. They're fleecing the flock for their own gain. And those who claim to be Christians who preach the "gospel of wealth" should be first in line to pay taxes. What happened in San Antonio is shameful, and if the attendees were also members of that congregation and not just the paying public, they should be ashamed, too.
Amen, sister. All of it.
All churches? Why throw the baby out with the bath water? There are many churches who are focused primarily on helping people in need in a variety of ways. (I was at one of those churches tonight.) Removing their tax exempt status would end up shutting some down and negatively affecting the people who would no longer be helped.
Re: Christianity - Was Jesus political? In our current times, it seems anything related to compassionate response is being accused of being political. It's ridiculous! However, it seems religion has not ever been completely separate from politics. Morals, ethics, religion, and politics are all intertwined. I don't know where the line is, legally, or if it's realistic.
The chant was beyond political. As a so called Christian church, what that chant implied was hypocritical. It looks like they are ignoring what Jesus taught and using their church status for selfish gain. That is what bothers me most.
It sounds harsh, but yes. I feel about tax exemptions for faith groups the way I feel about our system of granting patents. It was a good idea in the beginning and it has morphed into something far from its original intent. Surely there is a better, more equitable way.
What would you suggest? Do you think all tax-exempt status be eliminated from non-secular non-profit organizations as well? There are some churches that put more of their funds and (volunteer) labor into charitable works than some non-profits. And there are non-profits that rely heavily on volunteers and funds from partnering churches. It's intertwined and complicated.
Food pantries, Mobile Foodshare, temp housing for homeless families, clothing/food/holiday gift collections, space for AA meetings, Preschools, senior meals are some of the things found in churches. And then there are armies of volunteers resettling refugee families, assisting teachers in classrooms in vulnerable schools, buying and filling backpacks for kids, supplying staff & meals in homeless shelters on the days not covered by regular staff, sorting food at Foodshare and staffing mobile foodsite locations, converting space to temp bedrooms for homeless families and providing meals during their stay, fixing damaged homes near and far...to name a few.
Church for some is a place where they feel accepted for who they are and are welcomed. This is especially valuable for teens. Other churches are full of judgment, and harm. Again, so very different. I can say on the former, it would also be tragic to lose the teen fellowship offered by welcoming congregations.
Additionally, many do put what is taught in church into practice in bigger ways. Compassion & love guide many to seek equity and justice for all, and that is when politics overlap. We know what party that more closely aligns to. We learn together with open minds and hearts, and seek out ways to raise up others who have been struggling and/or historically disadvantaged.
On the other hand, there are (mega)churches that put a lot of money into production, pastor pay, beautiful facilities, and even private planes. Some align with anti-social justice and anti-equity politics. That churches like mine get lumped into the same category as those churches is unfortunate. We share the word, "church", but we are very different. We need different words to describe and separate them. I do not agree they should all be treated the same when it comes to tax-exempt status. I would guess many church congregations, doing good work, would end up having to close their doors if they had to pay taxes on the offerings collected. I don't know if anyone has analyzed what the impact on community services etc would be without church funding & volunteers. I imagine it would have a significant ripple effect in a negative way. I don't know what the answer is. I share your frustration with churches whose actions/words contradict what they say they believe. I just don't think churches like mine should be punished because of them. It would ripple out to punishing unintended vulnerable people.
The only people it will hurt are the megachurches and the megapreachers with their multiple homes, cars, private planes, fur, and diamonds and gold. The whole point of tithing is the notion that a minimum of ten families can support a single preacher and his family who live the same lifestyle as the congregation lives. Or, if they can't manage that, then the preacher has a weekday job like everyone else. It *doesn't* mean that one preacher fleeces 500 or 1000 families for a tithe and then lives high on the hog while they continue to struggle.
The offerings collected go to far more than pastor salaries and speaking for my own church, pastors already have weekday jobs (& then some) with church related activities. I do get your point though that pastors shouldn't be made wealthy, as you described.
I guess it depends on how it's done. I'm pretty sure the churches that would suffer the most would be the smaller churches. They are already struggling to survive.
The religious aspects are an interesting philosophical discussion. However, the operational part is reporting to the IRS - and quickly in case power shifts again next year. If a church is found to engage in politics, they can (and often do) lose their tax exemption.
Absolutely.
Do they? I think the IRS has prosecuted and won once, maybe. Deciding what is and is not a legit "religion" for tax purposes is not something the government should have to do.
They don't decide whether it's a religion. It's about political speech/activity:
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/the-restriction-of-political-campaign-intervention-by-section-501c3-tax-exempt-organizations
Yes, you're right. I was confusing two different things. No tax-exempt organization is allowed to campaign for specific candidates, whether it's a church or the Red Cross.
Then let's remind this church of just that. I'd bet the quadi-political nonsense would stop if they thought the IRS was going to yank their tax-free status.
They know this is a violation: they're betting they won't be caught and reported. You're kinder than I: I say report them and let them find grace through repentance.
Maybe so. For me, places like this get one chance at redemption, then all bets are off.
They have a FB page: https://www.facebook.com/cornerstonecentralsa
Thank you. One more portal through which I can ask them why.
I am trying to remember which Republican woman married to someone in office coyly called a Democrat woman "rhymes with witch." Do you happen to remember?
Of course I do. Barbara Bush.
I bow before you. :)
See, I look at remembering some little thing like that as kind of sad. Like, I could be devoting my brain cells to worthwhile things, but no. I focus on crap like this.
Whereas I tend to think, "There must be something sharp and special about this weird snapshot. I wonder what it is, and whether I'll ever know what it is?"
Come sit by me.
You have a good memory. I'd forgotten this episode. https://www.reflectivepundit.com/reflectivepundit/2007/11/geraldine-ferra.html
Thanks for the link.
I firmly believed that the ticket should've been flipped - Ferraro was wicked smaht - and still can't wrap my head around the fact that she was taken down due to the interactions her lawyer husband had with the mob, when a few short decades later we elected a man whose hotels were built with cement only available through mod ties, and whose business model and behavior is so clearly "Cosa Nostra".
https://www.powells.com/book/down-girl-the-logic-of-misogyny-9780190933203
Ah, thank you so much!
Man, the amount of carry-on.
When I consider religion, and take sections of scripture, like the Beatitudes, I conclude that MOST of today's "organized corporate religions" simply lost the focus...simply said they all stopped applying the simple concept of WWJD!
No argument here. It’s stunning how far afield some have wandered, but I shouldn’t be stunned. There are examples of this in the Christian scriptures, way back when.
Susan, Great read! Write on!
Thank you!
I sent this to the address you listed:
Shame on you for allowing your sacred space to be abused in this manner. I trust the rental fees made it worth the loss of your reputation as a congregation that takes "take all the Gospel to all the world." I'm guessing your copy of the Gospels doesn't include the Beatitudes, or the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man, or the story of the Final Judgment in Matthew 25?
Congregations like yours are the reason I'm unchurched.
Sincerely,
An Unchurched Christian
We think alike. That is similar (including the "shame on you") to what I sent. And extra points to you for quoting scripture.
I messaged them on Facebook, adding the verse, "My house will be called a house of prayer, but you are making it a den of robbers." Matthew 21:12.
You made me think of "Jesus Christ Superstar" with that verse.
Like others have said, it is time to end this "religion as a political pulpit" nonsense. Once stuff like that is seen and heard, you document all that and send it straight to the IRS. Freedom of speech? Borderline maybe. Freedom of religion? Wasn't there something about "...thou shall not put other Gods before me..."?
Indeed, Mary Ann; you’ve got to be taught (and children most certainly listen). 😥
https://youtu.be/owxRpV7l8Dc