We all circulate and we all know people who cling to the tattered TFG flag. I do not have a good answer for how best to engage — or even whether to engage — with that community. In fact, I mostly don’t-engage because I have yet to have a meaningful conversation in that realm.
I don't encounter much of that kind of talk in real life, except as conversations overheard in a diner maybe. But if I did, I would just give them a blank look, nod, and slowly back away. They could be armed. You never know. Even here in Connecticut.
I don't know that it is possible to speak with them "in that realm." Like you, I have seldom been able to have a meaningful conversation, though I have tried. That said, I do think that kindness and respect (in other realms, like neighborliness) gives them a glimpse back into the world they knew before the professional brain-washers wormed (shouted!) their way into their neurological wiring. I remember, just after the election that tore off my rose-colored glasses about the US populace, that the first question most of these folks would ask me is "Why do you hate (insert name here)?! My response was always, "I don't hate anyone." This (I hope) is true; I work hard to love this world. Hate grows stronger when it meets itself in another. So, before the conversations can begin, maybe we need to say hello and ask about their gardens or pets or family; maybe we need to reestablish that we share some safe ground to just be neighbors. Caveat: this interaction is predicated on feeling and being safe while we engage. I don't know ... maybe?
That's the thing! Today is Thursday. It is. I promise. Check a calendar. No, the courts aren't trying to make it Wed. NO, Sec. Clinton did not obstruct the calendar. Jaysus.
I usually don't initiate discussion with someone who's clearly not interested in hearing anything with which they might disagree. Such people will NEVER change their minds. Better to engage with people who show an inkling of sincere interest. And then, I almost always take the high road: stick to facts and reason, take the time to listen to them (it's only fair), and never insult them. Today's political dialogue is so rife with ad hominem attacks that accomplish nothing in the way of mutual understanding.
I have close family members who are Trump supporters. I have had conversations w/ them over the years. For me the key was to be respectful, not be argumentative & keep my "how can you be that stupid?" feelings to myself. It wasn't easy, there was a lot of tiptoeing on my part but I wanted to understand what the heck they saw in him & am glad we had those conversations. Thank goodness though that they're not "clinging to the tattered TFG flag" and don't want to see him in office again.
In my case (strictly in my family), the original allure was the fact that Trump was a business man. It didn't matter that he was not a successful one. What mattered was that they perceived he was one. But by now, even the. most strident among them have lost interest.
I think it was Russel Brand who recommended just pausing a bit and looking at folks sputtering nonsense like a curiosity. I don’t think it always works, but in my experience it works enough times to be a dipstick for dipshits. Just a suggestion. I use my eyebrows to suggest a mood.
This is tough. Can we look our girls in the eye if we DON’T initiate some kind of dialogue. I mean, what will happen if we think the “take over” is inevitable. I seem to always bing boing between being kind always or to be more discerning. Lately, I seem feel guilty when I feel that I am part of the problem esp if I stick my nose up at close to, what, 50% of our population? I come from such humble backgrounds that I can honestly say that a good portion of my close family lean right and I am called “uppity” because I love learning and went to college and beyond. Even say this is bigoted on my part.
Trump embodies misogyny, racism, greed and self-loathing. He’s the walking, talking id of the republican party. Most of his followers aren’t burdened with confronting their own hate because Trump does the hating for them. It’s a twisted relationship of convenience built on thinly veiled denial, a wink and a nod. I don’t think there’s any talking to these people. My guess is if any of them really change it will be because Trump’s decompensation continues to the point where even they feel they need to disassociate themselves. Hopefully, at that point, they confront their own denial. I’m not holding my breath.
Oh, he's a way-smart Mensch. He's enunciating the MAGA argument, such as it is. (I was confused by the first tweet I saw from him, which I failed to recognize as a joke about Hunter Biden, utterly out of government, being pursued, while Jared Kushner swans about unmolested by the MAGAs.
I find myself thinking a lot about the dwarves in C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle, who, having found themselves fooled by a false Aslan, determine to believe nothing and ally with no one. "The Dwarves for the Dwarves!" is their cry, as they commit mayhem on both sides of a battle between Good and Evil. (How dull and compromising I find all Good/Evil paradigms.) You could have a conversation with them in their paradigm, but nothing had any traction to speak of. And they had so battened their senses that they took any attempt to offer evidence belying their paradigm, as an assault.
What would constitute success or meaning in conversations with those Dwarves?
I think that the majority of those clinging to their faith in TFG are wound up in mutually reinforcing strands of spun crap.
1. Their allegiance to TFG (or Their Politics) is identity, not choice.
2. Information or views damaging to the credos of that allegiance are attacks on their most intimate and essential being.
3. Those outside their allegiance are enemies who believe false things.
4. People who believe false things are liars whose words and sources are all lies, and those words and sources should be avoided at all costs.
5. It is important to remain ever on the alert because the world is full of mendacious attacks-- there are constant causes for fear.
6. You can be strong in your allegiances and remain sturdily yourself be regular immersion in the doctrinal pools you can count on: your fellow-allegiant and the sources you trust because they confirm your beliefs and the validity of your identity.
7. The less external evidence of a thread the stronger and more thoroughly and deeply backed it is.
8. Fear and anger yield energy*, and are addictive.
*I mean, they don't give me energy-- they wear me out-- but I suspect a lot of people are fairly torpid without stimulus, and enjoy the frissons as well as the self-righteousness.
Someone I love as a brother has always placed a lot of priority on Not Getting Taken. I have known him to get hung up very substantially on buying first a house, then a Mini Cooper that was the long-term apple of his beloved new wife's eye, because maybe, maybe, maybe if he said No a little longer the price would get cut, or some wild bargain would manifest. (San Jose in 2000. Mini Cooper at the high end of order-in-advance. The probability of that upside to missing the purchase was quite low.) He has always trusted fellow humans so little that I think he's wallowing in conspiracy theories, many Qian, without live companionship, but he's way a down a hole of non-functionality in which what he seemingly values most is Doubting the source of COVID (though he's sure it's the Chinese lab) and this is more important than public sanitary measures, of which No One Counted the Cost. (It's important because once you Know where COVID-19 came from you can keep viruses from being unleashed in future. How? Defunding.) He's very concerned about the replication crisis, which is an extremely sensible thing to be concerned about. And so he particularly distrusts The Authorities, that is, the funders and operators of the vast majority of experiments. And more and more.
I find myself boring in on these conversations, which is never an effective way of changing minds or winning hearts. I think in my case, we both walk away further entrenched. So then what happens? Not much.
Aw, I hope I didn’t imply you or anyone else is frightened. I’m more thinking of MLK JR’s sentiment and John Lewis’s good trouble. Many of my husband’s family in Poland tried walking away from Hitler’s initial rebel rousers and strong arm government wannabe’s and lost their lives. His dad and brother were the only surviving members of a family of over 125 folks. This definitely makes us ultra-skeptical about folks coming to their senses when they’ve too far gone. And what does that even mean? Will we know?
If they watch or read the news, it helps to convince them to link with more reliable news sources. If they are willing to try it, or you can help them reorder cable stations on their tv or link them/send them news to read, it's helpful. Once they shift away from the right-wing news, they start to see the light and you can begin to have more meaningful conversations.
Obviously, this can only be helpful with someone close to you and will try to be more open. It moved a couple of people in my family from Republican voters to Republican voters who would rather not vote at all if DT is the Republican choice. Not ideal because the problem goes beyond him. Still, it's a baby step forward.
For me I will only speak up when I hear somebody utter words that are "twilight zone" worthy. Otherwise I do like I did with the golf league I belonged to for over 25 years, walk away!
I'm wondering if the level of engagement differs depending on the relationship. If someone randomly starts a conversation, I don't engage much. But if I have a relationship already, I'm willing to engage. Maybe I'm just tired.
I don't encounter much of that kind of talk in real life, except as conversations overheard in a diner maybe. But if I did, I would just give them a blank look, nod, and slowly back away. They could be armed. You never know. Even here in Connecticut.
That's just so sad. And true.
I don't know that it is possible to speak with them "in that realm." Like you, I have seldom been able to have a meaningful conversation, though I have tried. That said, I do think that kindness and respect (in other realms, like neighborliness) gives them a glimpse back into the world they knew before the professional brain-washers wormed (shouted!) their way into their neurological wiring. I remember, just after the election that tore off my rose-colored glasses about the US populace, that the first question most of these folks would ask me is "Why do you hate (insert name here)?! My response was always, "I don't hate anyone." This (I hope) is true; I work hard to love this world. Hate grows stronger when it meets itself in another. So, before the conversations can begin, maybe we need to say hello and ask about their gardens or pets or family; maybe we need to reestablish that we share some safe ground to just be neighbors. Caveat: this interaction is predicated on feeling and being safe while we engage. I don't know ... maybe?
Sky is blue and grass is green. Until TFG tells them otherwise, then look out!
That's the thing! Today is Thursday. It is. I promise. Check a calendar. No, the courts aren't trying to make it Wed. NO, Sec. Clinton did not obstruct the calendar. Jaysus.
I usually don't initiate discussion with someone who's clearly not interested in hearing anything with which they might disagree. Such people will NEVER change their minds. Better to engage with people who show an inkling of sincere interest. And then, I almost always take the high road: stick to facts and reason, take the time to listen to them (it's only fair), and never insult them. Today's political dialogue is so rife with ad hominem attacks that accomplish nothing in the way of mutual understanding.
That's a good point. If we can talk, I'm all in, for days.
One on one face to face
I’m not subtle
I’m more like a blunt force object
I tell them straight up that they are in a cult
But I tell them not to take my word for it but that they should talk to a psychiatrist
Unless you’re scared
Or don’t
You goofballs are like my humor
You write the joke
All I have to do is come up with a punchline
I also tell them that their news sources often will lie straight to their face because they know you are brainwashed and they think you are stupid
I tell them that I know they are brainwashed
But my question is are you stupid???
It really is more a case of ignorance than stupidity in a lot of the goofballs
A stupid person is almost definitely ignorant
But not everyone that is ignorant is stupid
They lack information
But in the end , you can lead an ignorant person to facts but you can’t make them think
I admire you for staying in the conversation.
Most of the goofballs that I know personally and still see from time to time have stopped talking politics
At least around me
The ones that still feel the need to give me their opinions are just so predictable that it’s really easy for me to shut them down
And when we aren’t talking politics we can actually have normal conversations about anything
Sports , music , the weather , vacations
And I think because we can have those conversations it keeps them from isolating themselves from me
And cults try to do just that
Honestly, I just walk away.
That's all I've got, these days.
I have close family members who are Trump supporters. I have had conversations w/ them over the years. For me the key was to be respectful, not be argumentative & keep my "how can you be that stupid?" feelings to myself. It wasn't easy, there was a lot of tiptoeing on my part but I wanted to understand what the heck they saw in him & am glad we had those conversations. Thank goodness though that they're not "clinging to the tattered TFG flag" and don't want to see him in office again.
What did they see in him? <- real question
In my case (strictly in my family), the original allure was the fact that Trump was a business man. It didn't matter that he was not a successful one. What mattered was that they perceived he was one. But by now, even the. most strident among them have lost interest.
You mean losing interest in TFG-asshat.
Ah. I categorize that under "Magic, business source."
Really???!!
I think it was Russel Brand who recommended just pausing a bit and looking at folks sputtering nonsense like a curiosity. I don’t think it always works, but in my experience it works enough times to be a dipstick for dipshits. Just a suggestion. I use my eyebrows to suggest a mood.
I've tried, "Who cares what you think?" Doesn't work, either.
Did you stick your tongue out at them, lol!
This is tough. Can we look our girls in the eye if we DON’T initiate some kind of dialogue. I mean, what will happen if we think the “take over” is inevitable. I seem to always bing boing between being kind always or to be more discerning. Lately, I seem feel guilty when I feel that I am part of the problem esp if I stick my nose up at close to, what, 50% of our population? I come from such humble backgrounds that I can honestly say that a good portion of my close family lean right and I am called “uppity” because I love learning and went to college and beyond. Even say this is bigoted on my part.
Trump embodies misogyny, racism, greed and self-loathing. He’s the walking, talking id of the republican party. Most of his followers aren’t burdened with confronting their own hate because Trump does the hating for them. It’s a twisted relationship of convenience built on thinly veiled denial, a wink and a nod. I don’t think there’s any talking to these people. My guess is if any of them really change it will be because Trump’s decompensation continues to the point where even they feel they need to disassociate themselves. Hopefully, at that point, they confront their own denial. I’m not holding my breath.
@WoodrowforCO tweeted yesterday:
Inside the MAGA Mind:
We are good people.
Good people don’t vote for a wanton criminal.
We vote for Trump.
Therefore Trump is innocent.
The arrogance!
He also offered:
“Since we didn’t get to lock her up he should be allowed to commit unlimited crimes.”
-GOP platform plank
Oh, he's a way-smart Mensch. He's enunciating the MAGA argument, such as it is. (I was confused by the first tweet I saw from him, which I failed to recognize as a joke about Hunter Biden, utterly out of government, being pursued, while Jared Kushner swans about unmolested by the MAGAs.
I find myself thinking a lot about the dwarves in C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle, who, having found themselves fooled by a false Aslan, determine to believe nothing and ally with no one. "The Dwarves for the Dwarves!" is their cry, as they commit mayhem on both sides of a battle between Good and Evil. (How dull and compromising I find all Good/Evil paradigms.) You could have a conversation with them in their paradigm, but nothing had any traction to speak of. And they had so battened their senses that they took any attempt to offer evidence belying their paradigm, as an assault.
What would constitute success or meaning in conversations with those Dwarves?
I think that the majority of those clinging to their faith in TFG are wound up in mutually reinforcing strands of spun crap.
1. Their allegiance to TFG (or Their Politics) is identity, not choice.
2. Information or views damaging to the credos of that allegiance are attacks on their most intimate and essential being.
3. Those outside their allegiance are enemies who believe false things.
4. People who believe false things are liars whose words and sources are all lies, and those words and sources should be avoided at all costs.
5. It is important to remain ever on the alert because the world is full of mendacious attacks-- there are constant causes for fear.
6. You can be strong in your allegiances and remain sturdily yourself be regular immersion in the doctrinal pools you can count on: your fellow-allegiant and the sources you trust because they confirm your beliefs and the validity of your identity.
7. The less external evidence of a thread the stronger and more thoroughly and deeply backed it is.
8. Fear and anger yield energy*, and are addictive.
*I mean, they don't give me energy-- they wear me out-- but I suspect a lot of people are fairly torpid without stimulus, and enjoy the frissons as well as the self-righteousness.
Someone I love as a brother has always placed a lot of priority on Not Getting Taken. I have known him to get hung up very substantially on buying first a house, then a Mini Cooper that was the long-term apple of his beloved new wife's eye, because maybe, maybe, maybe if he said No a little longer the price would get cut, or some wild bargain would manifest. (San Jose in 2000. Mini Cooper at the high end of order-in-advance. The probability of that upside to missing the purchase was quite low.) He has always trusted fellow humans so little that I think he's wallowing in conspiracy theories, many Qian, without live companionship, but he's way a down a hole of non-functionality in which what he seemingly values most is Doubting the source of COVID (though he's sure it's the Chinese lab) and this is more important than public sanitary measures, of which No One Counted the Cost. (It's important because once you Know where COVID-19 came from you can keep viruses from being unleashed in future. How? Defunding.) He's very concerned about the replication crisis, which is an extremely sensible thing to be concerned about. And so he particularly distrusts The Authorities, that is, the funders and operators of the vast majority of experiments. And more and more.
This is all very good.
Or, you know, really really bad. :(
Actually I meant the gun variable is NOT foreign to me.
Just a question, really.
Is just walking away like staying silent? I get so confused how to think about this. Certainly education helps, and the gun variable is foreign to me.
It’s not like I am afraid to get into a discussion, but as someone mentioned, if they’re too far gone, they’re not gonna listen. Walk, walk walk
I find myself boring in on these conversations, which is never an effective way of changing minds or winning hearts. I think in my case, we both walk away further entrenched. So then what happens? Not much.
That’s my dilemma
Aw, I hope I didn’t imply you or anyone else is frightened. I’m more thinking of MLK JR’s sentiment and John Lewis’s good trouble. Many of my husband’s family in Poland tried walking away from Hitler’s initial rebel rousers and strong arm government wannabe’s and lost their lives. His dad and brother were the only surviving members of a family of over 125 folks. This definitely makes us ultra-skeptical about folks coming to their senses when they’ve too far gone. And what does that even mean? Will we know?
I probably should know this but what does. TFG stand for?
No worries. The Former Guy, from Biden. That Fucking Guy, from me.
Thank you. I prefer your version!
Fuck yeah!
If they watch or read the news, it helps to convince them to link with more reliable news sources. If they are willing to try it, or you can help them reorder cable stations on their tv or link them/send them news to read, it's helpful. Once they shift away from the right-wing news, they start to see the light and you can begin to have more meaningful conversations.
Obviously, this can only be helpful with someone close to you and will try to be more open. It moved a couple of people in my family from Republican voters to Republican voters who would rather not vote at all if DT is the Republican choice. Not ideal because the problem goes beyond him. Still, it's a baby step forward.
For me I will only speak up when I hear somebody utter words that are "twilight zone" worthy. Otherwise I do like I did with the golf league I belonged to for over 25 years, walk away!
I'm wondering if the level of engagement differs depending on the relationship. If someone randomly starts a conversation, I don't engage much. But if I have a relationship already, I'm willing to engage. Maybe I'm just tired.