This all has the feel of a bad era winding down — though I imagine it will get uglier before it gets better — and at some point, we have to ask ourselves if there can be reconciliation in our deeplly divided country.
I suppose some of that depends on how Trumpian our loved ones became, or is any at all is just too much?
My religion tells me I should probably be prepared to walk more than half way back to meet these folks. My head, heart, and guts tell me there is no way I can or will do that.
This is a really great and important question. Unless we solve it, I think democracy, American hegemony and honestly humanity as we know it are all doomed.
Here's what I think-I think Trumpers are not the enemy. Trumpers are pawns. They are simply a vulnerable population. They are people just like us, only they're more fearful and honestly perhaps not as intellectually gifted or undereducated for some other reason. They deserve our empathy and sympathy.
We know that humans have all different sizes of amygdalae and we know that the larger your amygdalae, the more likely it is you are conservative. We don't get to choose our amygdala size. That's an inborn trait.
Fear is a powerful driver of conservatism. Big amygdalae causes you to fear everyone who's not in your tribe. If you have big amygdalae you oppose giving money or rights to people who are different than you. You don't want your enemies to be equal or god forbid "get ahead." Instead you favor allocating resources for defense. Spend big on defense budgets--we have to defend against other countries. At home spend big on your armamentarium. If you don't have a semi-automatic weapon nearby you'll be defenseless when the brown gay Muslim people invade your home. Again, this is not under your control. This is not anybody's fault.
Now, differing amygdalae size surely has been a biological fact for 200,000-300,000 years. We've seen other changes in our lifetimes that have exacerbated the problem. When we were growing up there were three networks and all of them had to comply with the Fairness Doctrine in order to be on the air. Cable and now streaming has enabled entrepreneurs to construct information sources that essentially create alternate universes. These alternate universes fit the worldviews of the big-amygdala people. If you are undereducated, if you lack critical thinking skills, and if you have big amygdalae, you are going to swallow this shit whole. It's not even half your fault.
I think the people we need to be looking at are the people who are behind these information sources. The Rupert Murdochs, the Roger Ailes, the Koch brothers. They don't actually believe the bullshit they're putting out there. This is strictly a business proposition for them. They're doing it strictly for money and power. They don't care if they ruin our democracy. They seemingly don't care if they end humanity. They care about getting more for them in their lifetimes. In their minds that's how you win the game. I think their brains may also be defective. These are people who are born with powerful intellects, but without a moral compass. On the political side, look at Ted Cruz, Tom Cotton, Ron DeSantis. They all fit the mold.
I think about the tobacco industry. The leaders of that group took advantage of a vulnerable population for profit. The fact that they were and are literally killing people never gave them any pause. Again, really smart people with no moral compass.
I know this is a rambling mess, but my point is that Trumpers are not the enemy. They are decent people who have lots of fear and not as much education. If we can find a way to make common cause with them, that's when we can defeat the overlords.
This is not as big a mess as you think it is. I think about my upbringing and who I was taught to fear/avoid. I actually had one of the biggest conservative in my life, a hateful man who hurt children, explain to me that the n-word was wrong. I was a kid. The word fell off my lips fairly easily. And then he explained it in such a way that I never used it again. I know there is good in ever one. Every one. I just have to find the energy to find that good, or I think I’ll be a big part of the problem. Thank you, Bro. Stan. You always make me think.
Aug 23, 2023·edited Aug 23, 2023Liked by Susan Campbell
I think there’s a large number of Trump supporters that aren’t as poor as we think, aren’t as uneducated as we think or as “forgotten” as we think. A lot of them are educated, middle and upper class or outright rich. They may not be the overlords but they identify with the overlords more than they do the folks you describe. Think the Villages in Florida. While they may be pawns as well, their latching on to the forgotten meme is an act. They are open to Trump’s message because of their greed, white nationalism, authoritarianism, not vulnerable to his message because they’re forgotten or downtrodden. Like Trump, they depend on division. I’d like to think there’s a bridge somewhere to those who are truly forgotten but I can’t ignore the millions that are clearly and consciously uninterested in maintaining a democracy going forward. They are lost to me.
A great and fair point. Maybe we have to get this group to see that it's in their long term self interest--and in the interests of their children and grandchildren--to vote for someone who has the ability to manage complex challenges like pandemics and climate change. It's going to be 94 degrees in the Villages today but it will feel like 115 degrees, and the pollution level is terrible.
Stan, like Susan, I appreciate your analysis. And agree with most of what you're saying. I don't know what to make of the fact that depending on how you define "undereducated", data show that those with "no college degree" split evenly between Trump and Biden in the 2020 election. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1184427/presidential-election-exit-polls-share-votes-education-us/. I think you're right that educational attainment provides insight into who voted for Trump vs Biden (see the substantial gap for college graduates, though even those numbers are much closer than one might expect). At the end of the day, every Trump voter who paid attention to anything that Trump or his key supporters had to say, indicated by their vote that they were either fully on board with the racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, anti-democratic agenda that formed the foundation of his campaign, OR they were willing to turn a blind eye to those political positions. Either way, welcoming Trump supporters "back into [my] life" asks a lot. Welcoming them back into my heart might be a bridge too far.
Thanks Doug. Yeah, it is interesting (and happy) that the no-college-degree crowd split, thanks for pointing that out. According to the NYT Biden beat Trump with college-educated voters, 55% to 43%, but I agree that it ought to be even more lopsided than that.
I think I could have stated my theory a little better. In so many ways we are all on spectra. There's the fearfulness spectrum, the intelligence spectrum, the education spectrum and then maybe I'll call it the political environment spectrum. I think the higher you are on the fear scale, the lower you are on the intelligence/education scale and the more conservative your political environment, the more likely you are to swallow what Fox News/Breitbart/Newsmax dishes out and the more likely you are to be a Trumper.
Our mutual friend Susan grew up about an hour from the buckle of the Bible Belt. That Congressional District went something like 74% for Trump. The vast majority of Susan's classmates are Trumpers. But Susan is fearless, whip smart and a college graduate and she ended up on the other side.
Knock it off. I’m no more fearless than the next hillbilly — only with hillbillies, I think we substitute “stupid” for “fearless.” My “I do t give a shit” meter serves me well, too.
I hear and agree with your analysis Doug, Susan and Stan. I would just offer that there is a group of malignant narcissist and sociopaths that identify with Trump and therefore support him. I think MJT, DeSantis right off. This list is long and grab as much tv and media attention as they can to feed their egos and illness. I cannot welcome them back into my life. Unfortunately a former acquaintance who thought she was a friend fits here.
I don't think I could ever again be all in, one on one, with an unreformed Trumper. I do feel I can be more welcoming in a social sense--social gatherings, etc. Fortunately, I don't have family members where it is an issue!
I get along with my family and friends who are Trumpers as long as we don’t talk about it too much and they don’t spew any hateful rhetoric. It’s an uneasy truce. I’m starting to worry though that I won’t be able to be that forgiving if, God forbid, they put him back in office.
I used to be worried about that, on a national basis, during the Trump administration and until a bit after the 2020 election. Then I stopped worrying about it, because it seems self-evident how seldom they will acknowledge ever having been at fault. And I think that the behavior of former Confederate devotees after Reconstruction was gutted demonstrates how little subsiding to quiet grumbling suffices.
On a personal basis, I have relatives whose alliances I am unsure of but dubious about, and I guess I can let it go at that level, assuming they don't tell me about disappointed nominal resignation.* Also, frankly, they're very old and showing it.
As for friends and acquaintances, I have no problems if/when they repent. I can keep things okayish at a tongs-level basis, so long as Trumpdom and MAGA conspiracy rubbish aren't 30% or more of their personalities. I don't shun, or very seldom, but sometimes multiple lashed-together tongs are appropriate.
* Probably they aren't actually Trumpies, but just anti-liberal and racist in a Korean-American fashion? Because they spent the bulk of their adult lives as part of New York City, which is pretty synonymous with knowing the man as a shoddy mobbed up grifter.
If so, yeah, me too. That's exactly what I was flailing away at. With the "where do we put those" pretty literal geographically, as well as in a metaphor about their civil rights. I didn't come up with any happy answer.
I hate the only answer I've come up with. But here we are, in a situation not unlike that of post World War II West Germany. I am eager both that the question be discussed publicly by policymakers (look! I just saw a lovely pig overhead!) and that a better answer be arrived at than I can.
I think that some types of political speech need to be made illegal. Insistent lies that defy copious evidence or that interpret copious evidence as Evidence of Deep Plot. Casual assertions that injustice justifies violent insurrection, but with protections for violence that is incidental to speech events. (We have seen not only BLM protests vilified for the occasional overwrought participant, but for the increasingly frequent false-flag violence by white supremacists in masquerade.)
I think that anyone who has spoken or acted publicly in furtherance of Trumpian election denial or insurrection after January 21, 2021 should retain the rights to run for elective position or to work as a campaign organizer unless they sign a form of confession and renunciation, with vows to support elected government-- and go through a public truth and reconciliation process.
Truth and reconciliation processes need to be professional, funded, not volunteer, and to be widely available.
Special courts are undoubtedly needed to determine who is subject to those special requirements. Those too should be professional , funded, not volunteer, and be widely available.
These are not things that will happen. They won't even be attempted. Because:
(1) They're costly. To which I think honestly the best response is "So WTF do you expect? Are we all the bear the social costs of keeping these people empowered? Are we not to repair the costly damages they have inflicted, and risk their perseverating, as they have before?"
(2) The Supreme Court. Which is of course an issue in itself.
I am intrigued by the whole idea of truth and reconciliation. A friend of mine was involved in South Africa's, and while the country wasn't all sweetness and light afterward, it was a long way farther along than it would have been, I imagine, without those tough conversations.
This is an important and difficult question, Susan. A mutual friend of ours has said that we have to get used to the fact that these people aren't going away and we all will have to live with them. And that many of them seem perfectly nice on the surface. I think he is right about this, but when I hear him say it I always think "you are a better person than me." I have a lot of cognitive dissonance about this.
Walking half way feels a bit like giving truth and lies equal weighting. I'd be willing to stretch out a hand to welcome the Trumpians to a level headed, fair minded, fact based reality. However, if they don't accept the offer of fact based discussion, I will eventually move on. And some people are sociopathic narcissists so it's useless to engage at all.
That's not to say that every idea from the democrats is the best one. I like a good healthy, respectful debate and brainstorming session. However, in order for that to be successful, there must be some shared morals, ethics and goals. And there must be agreement on facts. And also important is a desire to honestly find what is true (vs what is desired). In public discussions, that level-setting is completely missing. More often than not, discussions skip over finding common goals and go right to why the other side is bad (& sometimes mention their idea). If there is not agreement on those basic tenets, then there is no hope for discussion.
I figure there are conservatives who have been convinced that they are supporting good things and want to do the right thing, there are people who don't pay attention and vote according to their party (I've always been a Republican attitude), and there are people who knowingly want whatever gives them personally an advantage (to hell with the rest of the people)....there are a range of people. The difficult task is finding people from the other side who are willing to have open, honest and informed discussions. Most of what I see in the media and online is mud-slinging. I'm so done with that. True reconciliation requires both sides to want it. I think that means there needs to be some acknowledgement that we have some common goals.
I’ve spent the day on the couch, watching those to-hell-with-the-other-people, getting their mug shots in Georgia. I think you hit the mail on the head: If we do t have common goals, what do we have? Nothing to build on.
No, I could not. I recently left the Republicans because I did not fit in. I thought I was a Republican for years but wasn't involved beyond voting every four years. I had an argument a few years back with a local Republican and figured I really can't argue if I'm not involved. I went to the local meeting, stayed on the outskirts for a couple of years and didn't agree with 99% of their values. That person's position opened up and I agreed to fill in - on the agreement that I'd vote for what I believed in, etc. That was agreed to. Then I served a year on a local board and the bullying from my own party started when they realized I meant what I said. I voted what I believed was right. I resigned after a year, after a horrible conversation following a budget vote.
I'm now a registered Democrat after realizing my values were Democratic all along. I have a couple of friends who are Republicans, but I don't see them often. They aren't Trumpers and are very unhappy with Trump. Both resigned from local politics.
As for me, I am happy to be where I should have been all along politically. It's been amazing to see the difference in how the parties treat one another in their own party. It's night and day.
I would hope the Democratic Party would live up to its Big Tent Party rep but I know that’s not always the case. There is absolutely a place at the table for conservative values but not if they’re washed through Trump.
Some of my friends are conservatives, not necessarily Trump voters but I don't know that for sure. We just don't discuss politics when we are together. It is best to keep it that way.
It must be me, but people bring up politics with me and when I gently suggest that they may not like the outcome of any subsequent conversation, I bow out.
Yeah…. Though my wokeness (of which I am quite proud), rang loudly during the 4 years of ignorance, it always alerted me to the nausea of slumbering hatred.
The relational expectations of a trump supporter and affection for a trump supporter will possibly never be what it may have been.
That someone could be fooled by or more horribly attracted to, someone whose morals and concern for others is so corrupt would be hard to ignore. That might be a lingering testament to their character. Yet I’m called to forgive. But scripture does say forgive and forget. It only asks us to forgive. So the forgiving part is a decision I can make. The emotional release from that act of forgiveness may just take awhile.
I applaud you. I do think Trump just uncovered a lot of what has always been. It’s just that some of us had the pleasure of ignorance to tuck us in at night.
When you discover that someone in your life lacks a basic moral compass, or the intellectual capacity to use one, is it really necessary to engage? I don’t think so. Do you help them back up on their feet? Sure. If they realize they were down in the first place. But if an individual is going to remain a belligerent bad actor within the scope of human morality, then no thanks.
I am related to some rock-ribbed Republicans and I’d characterize a f ew of them as far-right. We’ve never been close and I do t see that changing on this side of the grave.
This is a really great and important question. Unless we solve it, I think democracy, American hegemony and honestly humanity as we know it are all doomed.
Here's what I think-I think Trumpers are not the enemy. Trumpers are pawns. They are simply a vulnerable population. They are people just like us, only they're more fearful and honestly perhaps not as intellectually gifted or undereducated for some other reason. They deserve our empathy and sympathy.
We know that humans have all different sizes of amygdalae and we know that the larger your amygdalae, the more likely it is you are conservative. We don't get to choose our amygdala size. That's an inborn trait.
Fear is a powerful driver of conservatism. Big amygdalae causes you to fear everyone who's not in your tribe. If you have big amygdalae you oppose giving money or rights to people who are different than you. You don't want your enemies to be equal or god forbid "get ahead." Instead you favor allocating resources for defense. Spend big on defense budgets--we have to defend against other countries. At home spend big on your armamentarium. If you don't have a semi-automatic weapon nearby you'll be defenseless when the brown gay Muslim people invade your home. Again, this is not under your control. This is not anybody's fault.
Now, differing amygdalae size surely has been a biological fact for 200,000-300,000 years. We've seen other changes in our lifetimes that have exacerbated the problem. When we were growing up there were three networks and all of them had to comply with the Fairness Doctrine in order to be on the air. Cable and now streaming has enabled entrepreneurs to construct information sources that essentially create alternate universes. These alternate universes fit the worldviews of the big-amygdala people. If you are undereducated, if you lack critical thinking skills, and if you have big amygdalae, you are going to swallow this shit whole. It's not even half your fault.
I think the people we need to be looking at are the people who are behind these information sources. The Rupert Murdochs, the Roger Ailes, the Koch brothers. They don't actually believe the bullshit they're putting out there. This is strictly a business proposition for them. They're doing it strictly for money and power. They don't care if they ruin our democracy. They seemingly don't care if they end humanity. They care about getting more for them in their lifetimes. In their minds that's how you win the game. I think their brains may also be defective. These are people who are born with powerful intellects, but without a moral compass. On the political side, look at Ted Cruz, Tom Cotton, Ron DeSantis. They all fit the mold.
I think about the tobacco industry. The leaders of that group took advantage of a vulnerable population for profit. The fact that they were and are literally killing people never gave them any pause. Again, really smart people with no moral compass.
I know this is a rambling mess, but my point is that Trumpers are not the enemy. They are decent people who have lots of fear and not as much education. If we can find a way to make common cause with them, that's when we can defeat the overlords.
This is not as big a mess as you think it is. I think about my upbringing and who I was taught to fear/avoid. I actually had one of the biggest conservative in my life, a hateful man who hurt children, explain to me that the n-word was wrong. I was a kid. The word fell off my lips fairly easily. And then he explained it in such a way that I never used it again. I know there is good in ever one. Every one. I just have to find the energy to find that good, or I think I’ll be a big part of the problem. Thank you, Bro. Stan. You always make me think.
If that is all I accomplish in life it will have been enough.
I think there’s a large number of Trump supporters that aren’t as poor as we think, aren’t as uneducated as we think or as “forgotten” as we think. A lot of them are educated, middle and upper class or outright rich. They may not be the overlords but they identify with the overlords more than they do the folks you describe. Think the Villages in Florida. While they may be pawns as well, their latching on to the forgotten meme is an act. They are open to Trump’s message because of their greed, white nationalism, authoritarianism, not vulnerable to his message because they’re forgotten or downtrodden. Like Trump, they depend on division. I’d like to think there’s a bridge somewhere to those who are truly forgotten but I can’t ignore the millions that are clearly and consciously uninterested in maintaining a democracy going forward. They are lost to me.
We cannot discuss those folks with talking about white nationalism. Racism. All that.
A great and fair point. Maybe we have to get this group to see that it's in their long term self interest--and in the interests of their children and grandchildren--to vote for someone who has the ability to manage complex challenges like pandemics and climate change. It's going to be 94 degrees in the Villages today but it will feel like 115 degrees, and the pollution level is terrible.
Stan, like Susan, I appreciate your analysis. And agree with most of what you're saying. I don't know what to make of the fact that depending on how you define "undereducated", data show that those with "no college degree" split evenly between Trump and Biden in the 2020 election. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1184427/presidential-election-exit-polls-share-votes-education-us/. I think you're right that educational attainment provides insight into who voted for Trump vs Biden (see the substantial gap for college graduates, though even those numbers are much closer than one might expect). At the end of the day, every Trump voter who paid attention to anything that Trump or his key supporters had to say, indicated by their vote that they were either fully on board with the racist, misogynistic, homophobic, transphobic, xenophobic, anti-democratic agenda that formed the foundation of his campaign, OR they were willing to turn a blind eye to those political positions. Either way, welcoming Trump supporters "back into [my] life" asks a lot. Welcoming them back into my heart might be a bridge too far.
Thanks Doug. Yeah, it is interesting (and happy) that the no-college-degree crowd split, thanks for pointing that out. According to the NYT Biden beat Trump with college-educated voters, 55% to 43%, but I agree that it ought to be even more lopsided than that.
I think I could have stated my theory a little better. In so many ways we are all on spectra. There's the fearfulness spectrum, the intelligence spectrum, the education spectrum and then maybe I'll call it the political environment spectrum. I think the higher you are on the fear scale, the lower you are on the intelligence/education scale and the more conservative your political environment, the more likely you are to swallow what Fox News/Breitbart/Newsmax dishes out and the more likely you are to be a Trumper.
Our mutual friend Susan grew up about an hour from the buckle of the Bible Belt. That Congressional District went something like 74% for Trump. The vast majority of Susan's classmates are Trumpers. But Susan is fearless, whip smart and a college graduate and she ended up on the other side.
Knock it off. I’m no more fearless than the next hillbilly — only with hillbillies, I think we substitute “stupid” for “fearless.” My “I do t give a shit” meter serves me well, too.
(But the same goes for Stan.)
I hear and agree with your analysis Doug, Susan and Stan. I would just offer that there is a group of malignant narcissist and sociopaths that identify with Trump and therefore support him. I think MJT, DeSantis right off. This list is long and grab as much tv and media attention as they can to feed their egos and illness. I cannot welcome them back into my life. Unfortunately a former acquaintance who thought she was a friend fits here.
Yep. I agree. At this point, I don't have that much love in my heart.
I don't think I could ever again be all in, one on one, with an unreformed Trumper. I do feel I can be more welcoming in a social sense--social gatherings, etc. Fortunately, I don't have family members where it is an issue!
If he's re-elected, no.
Excellent point. An unsuccessful Trumper might be easier to fold into the mix than a successful one.
I get along with my family and friends who are Trumpers as long as we don’t talk about it too much and they don’t spew any hateful rhetoric. It’s an uneasy truce. I’m starting to worry though that I won’t be able to be that forgiving if, God forbid, they put him back in office.
I used to be worried about that, on a national basis, during the Trump administration and until a bit after the 2020 election. Then I stopped worrying about it, because it seems self-evident how seldom they will acknowledge ever having been at fault. And I think that the behavior of former Confederate devotees after Reconstruction was gutted demonstrates how little subsiding to quiet grumbling suffices.
On a personal basis, I have relatives whose alliances I am unsure of but dubious about, and I guess I can let it go at that level, assuming they don't tell me about disappointed nominal resignation.* Also, frankly, they're very old and showing it.
As for friends and acquaintances, I have no problems if/when they repent. I can keep things okayish at a tongs-level basis, so long as Trumpdom and MAGA conspiracy rubbish aren't 30% or more of their personalities. I don't shun, or very seldom, but sometimes multiple lashed-together tongs are appropriate.
* Probably they aren't actually Trumpies, but just anti-liberal and racist in a Korean-American fashion? Because they spent the bulk of their adult lives as part of New York City, which is pretty synonymous with knowing the man as a shoddy mobbed up grifter.
I am thinking about the unrepentant ones. Where do I put those?
National level?
If so, yeah, me too. That's exactly what I was flailing away at. With the "where do we put those" pretty literal geographically, as well as in a metaphor about their civil rights. I didn't come up with any happy answer.
I hate the only answer I've come up with. But here we are, in a situation not unlike that of post World War II West Germany. I am eager both that the question be discussed publicly by policymakers (look! I just saw a lovely pig overhead!) and that a better answer be arrived at than I can.
I think that some types of political speech need to be made illegal. Insistent lies that defy copious evidence or that interpret copious evidence as Evidence of Deep Plot. Casual assertions that injustice justifies violent insurrection, but with protections for violence that is incidental to speech events. (We have seen not only BLM protests vilified for the occasional overwrought participant, but for the increasingly frequent false-flag violence by white supremacists in masquerade.)
I think that anyone who has spoken or acted publicly in furtherance of Trumpian election denial or insurrection after January 21, 2021 should retain the rights to run for elective position or to work as a campaign organizer unless they sign a form of confession and renunciation, with vows to support elected government-- and go through a public truth and reconciliation process.
Truth and reconciliation processes need to be professional, funded, not volunteer, and to be widely available.
Special courts are undoubtedly needed to determine who is subject to those special requirements. Those too should be professional , funded, not volunteer, and be widely available.
These are not things that will happen. They won't even be attempted. Because:
(1) They're costly. To which I think honestly the best response is "So WTF do you expect? Are we all the bear the social costs of keeping these people empowered? Are we not to repair the costly damages they have inflicted, and risk their perseverating, as they have before?"
(2) The Supreme Court. Which is of course an issue in itself.
I am intrigued by the whole idea of truth and reconciliation. A friend of mine was involved in South Africa's, and while the country wasn't all sweetness and light afterward, it was a long way farther along than it would have been, I imagine, without those tough conversations.
I can think of a few places.
While I would never say never , there are some that I’m sure wouldn’t want to reconcile even if I begged them
And it’s probably just as well
I’ve known for a long time that people can change
I’ve seen it
Unfortunately it’s not always for the better
It’s kind of weird , but I would probably make more of an effort with some vocal supporters of Donnie one term than some of the quiet ones
I know what the vocal supporters think and feel
The quiet ones not so much
This is an important and difficult question, Susan. A mutual friend of ours has said that we have to get used to the fact that these people aren't going away and we all will have to live with them. And that many of them seem perfectly nice on the surface. I think he is right about this, but when I hear him say it I always think "you are a better person than me." I have a lot of cognitive dissonance about this.
Same. I understand the importance of unity. And I understand allegiance to equality, equity, and love. What do I do when those two seem at odds?
Just do the right thing. You know what that is in your heart.
Walking half way feels a bit like giving truth and lies equal weighting. I'd be willing to stretch out a hand to welcome the Trumpians to a level headed, fair minded, fact based reality. However, if they don't accept the offer of fact based discussion, I will eventually move on. And some people are sociopathic narcissists so it's useless to engage at all.
That's not to say that every idea from the democrats is the best one. I like a good healthy, respectful debate and brainstorming session. However, in order for that to be successful, there must be some shared morals, ethics and goals. And there must be agreement on facts. And also important is a desire to honestly find what is true (vs what is desired). In public discussions, that level-setting is completely missing. More often than not, discussions skip over finding common goals and go right to why the other side is bad (& sometimes mention their idea). If there is not agreement on those basic tenets, then there is no hope for discussion.
I figure there are conservatives who have been convinced that they are supporting good things and want to do the right thing, there are people who don't pay attention and vote according to their party (I've always been a Republican attitude), and there are people who knowingly want whatever gives them personally an advantage (to hell with the rest of the people)....there are a range of people. The difficult task is finding people from the other side who are willing to have open, honest and informed discussions. Most of what I see in the media and online is mud-slinging. I'm so done with that. True reconciliation requires both sides to want it. I think that means there needs to be some acknowledgement that we have some common goals.
I’ve spent the day on the couch, watching those to-hell-with-the-other-people, getting their mug shots in Georgia. I think you hit the mail on the head: If we do t have common goals, what do we have? Nothing to build on.
No, I could not. I recently left the Republicans because I did not fit in. I thought I was a Republican for years but wasn't involved beyond voting every four years. I had an argument a few years back with a local Republican and figured I really can't argue if I'm not involved. I went to the local meeting, stayed on the outskirts for a couple of years and didn't agree with 99% of their values. That person's position opened up and I agreed to fill in - on the agreement that I'd vote for what I believed in, etc. That was agreed to. Then I served a year on a local board and the bullying from my own party started when they realized I meant what I said. I voted what I believed was right. I resigned after a year, after a horrible conversation following a budget vote.
I'm now a registered Democrat after realizing my values were Democratic all along. I have a couple of friends who are Republicans, but I don't see them often. They aren't Trumpers and are very unhappy with Trump. Both resigned from local politics.
As for me, I am happy to be where I should have been all along politically. It's been amazing to see the difference in how the parties treat one another in their own party. It's night and day.
I would hope the Democratic Party would live up to its Big Tent Party rep but I know that’s not always the case. There is absolutely a place at the table for conservative values but not if they’re washed through Trump.
Some of my friends are conservatives, not necessarily Trump voters but I don't know that for sure. We just don't discuss politics when we are together. It is best to keep it that way.
It must be me, but people bring up politics with me and when I gently suggest that they may not like the outcome of any subsequent conversation, I bow out.
Well, with me. Ground rules are set. No politics. No FOX news on TV, etc.
No can do…..
Btw - I've enjoyed reading through all of the above comments. It's been thought provoking.
It really is!
Yeah…. Though my wokeness (of which I am quite proud), rang loudly during the 4 years of ignorance, it always alerted me to the nausea of slumbering hatred.
I love you, Deacon.
Yes, I could and will.
The relational expectations of a trump supporter and affection for a trump supporter will possibly never be what it may have been.
That someone could be fooled by or more horribly attracted to, someone whose morals and concern for others is so corrupt would be hard to ignore. That might be a lingering testament to their character. Yet I’m called to forgive. But scripture does say forgive and forget. It only asks us to forgive. So the forgiving part is a decision I can make. The emotional release from that act of forgiveness may just take awhile.
I applaud you. I do think Trump just uncovered a lot of what has always been. It’s just that some of us had the pleasure of ignorance to tuck us in at night.
When you discover that someone in your life lacks a basic moral compass, or the intellectual capacity to use one, is it really necessary to engage? I don’t think so. Do you help them back up on their feet? Sure. If they realize they were down in the first place. But if an individual is going to remain a belligerent bad actor within the scope of human morality, then no thanks.
Well, yeah. I don’t expect
my friends to vote like me (and they don’t) but if we can’t agree on basic decency, well, see ya.
It’s too much. The far right has gone off the grid. Even looking at the positions his opponents offer, it makes me want to gag.
I am related to some rock-ribbed Republicans and I’d characterize a f ew of them as far-right. We’ve never been close and I do t see that changing on this side of the grave.
Same here.
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