I have a growing up acquaintance, a Connecticut native, who moved to a state in the south. He likes to gloat about the lower taxes he pays. I pointed out that one the reasons was that his new home state gets more back from the feds than they pay versus Connecticut which pays more than we get back. When I suggested he never totally left Connecticut because his hand was still here picking our pockets, he got upset. Go figure. Another person I used to go to for personal services would brag about how they registered their cars in the state where they had their vacation home so they could avoid the CT property tax which, by the way, paid in part for the schools their children went to. All this is similar to the “government, keep your hands off my medicare” mentality.
These folks aren’t poor, uneducated, forgotten, mythical stereotypes of the right. They’re not rich but they’re plenty comfortable. They’re thoughtless, selfish, willfully ignorant and greedy. They’d complain about the government if they got stuck behind the town plow on a snowy road. If you suggested they don’t care about the common good they’d get the vapors. And they are the perfect target audience for the anti-government propaganda that protects the wealthy and corporations from the truth about taxes and equity.
EXACTly. I have had these conversations and it's like walking over your own tongue, on glass. The selfishness stuns me. As the wife of a retired firefighter, I usually came to, "Then put out your own damn fire, asshole" pretty quickly. THAT? Is NOT a conversation starter.
I just started reading The Sum of Us, by Heather McGhee, which promises to address this and other inequities. Why are we getting what we're paying for? Why can't we have nice things? It promises to be a worthwhile read.
Just brought that book up in class. We discussed her premise that white people are the most segregated racial group in the U.S. it’s an excellent, thought-provoking book.
I'm totally with you on this. Our parents and grandparents paid taxes so that we have the schools, highways and all the other infrastructure that fuels our business opportunities, but we have become so selfish we cry "but it's OUR money.
The advantages we enjoy as American citizens are not free, just like liberty. I know several successful owners of small businesses who hate taxes and always vote Republican. I remind them that they live in a country that allowed them to amass wealth, as opposed to say, living in the mountains of Pakistan where they are a goat herder like their father and grandfather and have no paved roads or schools for their children. The advantages we have been given are far greater than the taxes we pay.
I'm in your camp for sure but have two observations.
1. I think our system of withholding from wages tends to numb people to the amount of taxes they are paying. I think if everyone paid quarterly estimated taxes we might have a different country. Ponying up every three or four months really connects you to your taxes. I get that there would probably be collection issues. But I think it would lead to better much political engagement and a better country.
2. This year I won't pay any taxes at all since I'm trying to start a business and it only began producing revenue this year. But back when I had a going business I was paying A TON of taxes. One year it was close to $400K. I totally understand that we all have to pay taxes to fund the services we get. But I have to admit that there were years when I wondered whether it was really fair--that I was footing so much of the bill for the federal and state government and not really consuming anything like that proportion of services. Also when I had occasion to talk with the IRS, it treated me like an annoyance rather than like one of its best customers.
I have to disagree about (1). I was well-aware how much of each paycheck went to federal and state taxes. And if I ever forgot to notice, there was always a co-worker would remind us all. (2) Nobody is getting anywhere near the services that we're paying for. The benefits are floating to the top 0.1%.
You nailed it. No taxes? Okay but also no schools, no roads, lots of garbage and disease. We really just need to remember it's us, not me. And if somebody I don't like drives on the road or attends a meeting at the school I need to remember my taxes probably paid about 5 cents of their cost and now that I listen to his comment at the meeting I wonder why I don't like him. I don't know him at all.
Two times I feel best about us-not-me is when I vote and when I pay my taxes. Thanks for this one, Susan.
You can pry my tax dollars out of my cold dead hands because if we didn't have taxes a lot of us would die much sooner. Including, probably, me. I try to explain this to people over and over and over but the hegemony of greed is a big boulder to push up that hill.
I am with you and feel that we should contribute for the greater good. I don’t whine, except for the changes the Republicans made to federal taxes where those of us in Blue States can’t deduct our high state taxes. If you earn more, you should pay more.
I don’t believe the poorest amongst us need to pay taxes but the richest certainly should. It angers me that the richest people and corporations often pay nothing while reaping the benefits of living in our country.
George Lakoff talked about that in Don't Think of an Elephant. But after a year or so of people sneering, "You said that utterly ineffectively because George Lakoff," the general public seem to have forgotten about him and about framing.
I bet you'll find it righteous and soothing. I also bet that, like me, you've been wondering for over forty years why Dems and the left let the right set the agenda and standards for discourse.
Feeling you. It takes me four or five years to finish any substantial book lined up on my Kindle-- only partly because I have a cycle of fifteen.
One of my best friends is a librarian who likes to tell me books that are just now coming out, and her discernment is fabulous. Those, I read more expeditiously because they tend to be in demand at the library, so I have to get a wiggle on.
People who have POA go to heaven. We do not have a workable plan for the bulk of the people who are aging in this country, unless you count "Win the lottery" at age 65 as a plan. That's mine, anyway.
I have a growing up acquaintance, a Connecticut native, who moved to a state in the south. He likes to gloat about the lower taxes he pays. I pointed out that one the reasons was that his new home state gets more back from the feds than they pay versus Connecticut which pays more than we get back. When I suggested he never totally left Connecticut because his hand was still here picking our pockets, he got upset. Go figure. Another person I used to go to for personal services would brag about how they registered their cars in the state where they had their vacation home so they could avoid the CT property tax which, by the way, paid in part for the schools their children went to. All this is similar to the “government, keep your hands off my medicare” mentality.
These folks aren’t poor, uneducated, forgotten, mythical stereotypes of the right. They’re not rich but they’re plenty comfortable. They’re thoughtless, selfish, willfully ignorant and greedy. They’d complain about the government if they got stuck behind the town plow on a snowy road. If you suggested they don’t care about the common good they’d get the vapors. And they are the perfect target audience for the anti-government propaganda that protects the wealthy and corporations from the truth about taxes and equity.
EXACTly. I have had these conversations and it's like walking over your own tongue, on glass. The selfishness stuns me. As the wife of a retired firefighter, I usually came to, "Then put out your own damn fire, asshole" pretty quickly. THAT? Is NOT a conversation starter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXJgM2Z8n8k
Oh! I’d never seen this version. “Left hands.”
I just started reading The Sum of Us, by Heather McGhee, which promises to address this and other inequities. Why are we getting what we're paying for? Why can't we have nice things? It promises to be a worthwhile read.
Just brought that book up in class. We discussed her premise that white people are the most segregated racial group in the U.S. it’s an excellent, thought-provoking book.
It's a great book. Read it this summer.
I'm totally with you on this. Our parents and grandparents paid taxes so that we have the schools, highways and all the other infrastructure that fuels our business opportunities, but we have become so selfish we cry "but it's OUR money.
The advantages we enjoy as American citizens are not free, just like liberty. I know several successful owners of small businesses who hate taxes and always vote Republican. I remind them that they live in a country that allowed them to amass wealth, as opposed to say, living in the mountains of Pakistan where they are a goat herder like their father and grandfather and have no paved roads or schools for their children. The advantages we have been given are far greater than the taxes we pay.
Amen. You said it better.
I'm in your camp for sure but have two observations.
1. I think our system of withholding from wages tends to numb people to the amount of taxes they are paying. I think if everyone paid quarterly estimated taxes we might have a different country. Ponying up every three or four months really connects you to your taxes. I get that there would probably be collection issues. But I think it would lead to better much political engagement and a better country.
2. This year I won't pay any taxes at all since I'm trying to start a business and it only began producing revenue this year. But back when I had a going business I was paying A TON of taxes. One year it was close to $400K. I totally understand that we all have to pay taxes to fund the services we get. But I have to admit that there were years when I wondered whether it was really fair--that I was footing so much of the bill for the federal and state government and not really consuming anything like that proportion of services. Also when I had occasion to talk with the IRS, it treated me like an annoyance rather than like one of its best customers.
I have to disagree about (1). I was well-aware how much of each paycheck went to federal and state taxes. And if I ever forgot to notice, there was always a co-worker would remind us all. (2) Nobody is getting anywhere near the services that we're paying for. The benefits are floating to the top 0.1%.
You nailed it. No taxes? Okay but also no schools, no roads, lots of garbage and disease. We really just need to remember it's us, not me. And if somebody I don't like drives on the road or attends a meeting at the school I need to remember my taxes probably paid about 5 cents of their cost and now that I listen to his comment at the meeting I wonder why I don't like him. I don't know him at all.
Two times I feel best about us-not-me is when I vote and when I pay my taxes. Thanks for this one, Susan.
I feel the same way. I vote. I pay taxes. I do so to be a part of the greater collective, and to do my part of making that collective better.
It’s been baffling to me that many self-anointed super patriots, detest paying for the very nation to which they declare undying patriotism.
I'm spit-ballin' here, but I think they're (narrator voice) lying.
Oh…
You can pry my tax dollars out of my cold dead hands because if we didn't have taxes a lot of us would die much sooner. Including, probably, me. I try to explain this to people over and over and over but the hegemony of greed is a big boulder to push up that hill.
I am with you and feel that we should contribute for the greater good. I don’t whine, except for the changes the Republicans made to federal taxes where those of us in Blue States can’t deduct our high state taxes. If you earn more, you should pay more.
I don’t believe the poorest amongst us need to pay taxes but the richest certainly should. It angers me that the richest people and corporations often pay nothing while reaping the benefits of living in our country.
I will always be angry at the way the wealthy can evade paying taxes -- legally. Them, I have nothing for.
Yup.
George Lakoff talked about that in Don't Think of an Elephant. But after a year or so of people sneering, "You said that utterly ineffectively because George Lakoff," the general public seem to have forgotten about him and about framing.
Now I have to go read that. I haven't yet.
I bet you'll find it righteous and soothing. I also bet that, like me, you've been wondering for over forty years why Dems and the left let the right set the agenda and standards for discourse.
Just ordered it. Starting right after "The Books of Jacob," which I should complete in...oh, 2024.
Feeling you. It takes me four or five years to finish any substantial book lined up on my Kindle-- only partly because I have a cycle of fifteen.
One of my best friends is a librarian who likes to tell me books that are just now coming out, and her discernment is fabulous. Those, I read more expeditiously because they tend to be in demand at the library, so I have to get a wiggle on.
Just started it. I’m not sure how I missed this book when it came out. Facts don’t land. Framing does. I’ve been wasting a lotta ink.)
People who have POA go to heaven. We do not have a workable plan for the bulk of the people who are aging in this country, unless you count "Win the lottery" at age 65 as a plan. That's mine, anyway.